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The reason why more and more projects have to do that, is pretty much AWS. Most open source projects had managed services as an income stream for development, a

The reason why more and more projects have to do that, is pretty much AWS. Most open source projects had managed services as an income stream for development, and AWS destroyed that while not giving back a single cent. So yeah, the real dragon here is Amazon in my opinion. The projects don't have a choice. It's either BSL/AGPL or dead project. In the world of enterprise, nobody is gonna introduce a new hosting provider if they already have all the ISO audits for AWS or Azure.

beanjuiceII 3y ago
this aws scapegoat keeps getting worse with no real merit behind it
josephcsible 3y ago
> It's either BSL/AGPL or dead project. AGPL is an infinitely better choice than BSL. Nobody would have been upset had they switched to that instead.
- wmf 3y ago
  I may be in a minority of one, but I consider it disingenuous for companies to use GPL/AGPL to drive people towards commercial licenses. BUSL is at least honest about what's going on.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    How is it disingenuous? With GPL/AGPL it's actually FOSS. With BUSL it's not. If anything is disingenuous, it's the latter.
    - wmf 3y ago
      The result is the same so it's misleading that one is technically Open Source™ and the other is not.
      - josephcsible 3y ago
        How is the result the same?
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Does AWS even offer any arrangodb related services? I wasn't aware. This seems more like a preemptive move by investors to prevent such a thing ever happening. Which, congratulations, they just managed to do. But they might have thrown the baby away with the bathwater. I just looked at their repo and it seems pretty popular. However, all the top contributors seem to be based in Cologne, Germany. I guess the headquarters are there. Not a lot of outside contributions happening either. I.e. not a very vibrant/healthy oss community around this product. I don't think AWS even has an office there. So I take the lack of their involvement and interest as a given here. But please correct me if I'm wrong. This also makes a fork unlikely. There's a distinct lack of any external stakeholders here. Short of the original developers leaving and forking, that's just unlikely to happen.
- cookiengineer 3y ago
  You have some goos points there that I cannot deny. I just know ArangoDB because they were advertising their project on German dev meetups when it was very young as an alternative to all the NoSQL hyped databases that turned out to have some serious limitations. Their market seems to be the multi-model database market, where you also can run queries on the database without needing hacky "documents as views". They are also a somewhat alternative to neo4j, so I guess the graph database purpose is also there. Whether or not they can be scaled on the same level, like you implied, especially with the necessary tooling for replication, synchronization and balancing ... is a whole other question. Maybe someone that uses ArangoDB in production can chime in?
  - rom99 3y ago
    We're using it in production, both their cloud-hosted offering and for our on-prem software products. Massive scale isn't really a requirement for us but the multi-model capabilities are a winner for our use cases - being able to mix graph and relational-style queries in the same query language. A problem for us is the Enterprise licensing is implemented such that our on-prem customers would have to manually update a license string once a year, which is a PITA and why we have previously been using Community edition despite paying for Enterprise (mostly for the support contract).

beanjuiceII 3y ago

this aws scapegoat keeps getting worse with no real merit behind it

josephcsible 3y ago

> It's either BSL/AGPL or dead project. AGPL is an infinitely better choice than BSL. Nobody would have been upset had they switched to that instead.

wmf 3y ago
I may be in a minority of one, but I consider it disingenuous for companies to use GPL/AGPL to drive people towards commercial licenses. BUSL is at least honest about what's going on.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  How is it disingenuous? With GPL/AGPL it's actually FOSS. With BUSL it's not. If anything is disingenuous, it's the latter.
  - wmf 3y ago
    The result is the same so it's misleading that one is technically Open Source™ and the other is not.
    - josephcsible 3y ago
      How is the result the same?

jillesvangurp 3y ago

Does AWS even offer any arrangodb related services? I wasn't aware. This seems more like a preemptive move by investors to prevent such a thing ever happening. Which, congratulations, they just managed to do. But they might have thrown the baby away with the bathwater. I just looked at their repo and it seems pretty popular. However, all the top contributors seem to be based in Cologne, Germany. I guess the headquarters are there. Not a lot of outside contributions happening either. I.e. not a very vibrant/healthy oss community around this product. I don't think AWS even has an office there. So I take the lack of their involvement and interest as a given here. But please correct me if I'm wrong. This also makes a fork unlikely. There's a distinct lack of any external stakeholders here. Short of the original developers leaving and forking, that's just unlikely to happen.

cookiengineer 3y ago
You have some goos points there that I cannot deny. I just know ArangoDB because they were advertising their project on German dev meetups when it was very young as an alternative to all the NoSQL hyped databases that turned out to have some serious limitations. Their market seems to be the multi-model database market, where you also can run queries on the database without needing hacky "documents as views". They are also a somewhat alternative to neo4j, so I guess the graph database purpose is also there. Whether or not they can be scaled on the same level, like you implied, especially with the necessary tooling for replication, synchronization and balancing ... is a whole other question. Maybe someone that uses ArangoDB in production can chime in?
- rom99 3y ago
  We're using it in production, both their cloud-hosted offering and for our on-prem software products. Massive scale isn't really a requirement for us but the multi-model capabilities are a winner for our use cases - being able to mix graph and relational-style queries in the same query language. A problem for us is the Enterprise licensing is implemented such that our on-prem customers would have to manually update a license string once a year, which is a PITA and why we have previously been using Community edition despite paying for Enterprise (mostly for the support contract).