5 ms·

They are so totally full of shit. Sorry, that's against the site rules and all. But what else is there to say about such colossal delusion and doubletalk? If

They are so totally full of shit. Sorry, that's against the site rules and all. But what else is there to say about such colossal delusion and doubletalk? If they'd said, for instance, 'full driving' we'd have thought sure, it has all the features but still, take care it might be buggy. If they'd said 'self driving' again we'd think, it can do it but maybe not in all circumstances. But they said it all; 'Full self-driving' means it does the whole enchilada. It can mean nothing else. It's normal English, well-understood by anybody who is listening. No ambiguity. No wiggle room. These guys ought to be enjoined to stop selling their irresponsible death machines.

duskwuff 3y ago
And Tesla was even clearer about the intended capabilities of FSD in their 2016 promo video: > "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." No reasonable person would interpret that as coming with the implied caveat of "but that person might need to intervene at any moment".
l33t7332273 3y ago
I agree completely that claiming full self driving is a marketing term that means anything but complete autonomy is just a straight up lie.
TheAlchemist 3y ago
It's mind blowing what Tesla and Musk are allowed to do. And don't get me started about the doubletalk ! Musk clearly thinks he's above the law now (and for some reason, this seems to be the case for now). There are countless other examples, some are not even debatable. For example, when he bought the first 9% of Twitter. Legally, he should have disclose that at 5% threshold - which he did not. It's estimated that it saved him ~$150 million. There is nothing to debate - the law is clear, and he intentionally did not disclose his buying. One would think that it's not a complicated case, yet still 1 year after there is nothing done ! Nothing. SEC is suing him now, but ... not really for wrongdoing ! They want to bring him to testify. I don't know what's going on, but clearly he's getting a lot of free passes.
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  That’s the problem when you get too big, isn’t it? Musk now has $149 million extra that he can spend on fighting legal battles with the SEC and still come out at least a million ahead. Does the SEC have $149m in spare resources to fight this fight? Unfortunately this is the math I believe the enforcement agencies have to do.
  - deadbolt 3y ago
    What does $149M get you in a legal argument? I realize this must seem like a very naive question, but if the law said "you must disclose at 5%", and someone fails to do so, shouldn't that be a simple case?
malablaster 3y ago
Between the lies about battery capacity and this, Tesla is not to be trusted.
ocdtrekkie 3y ago
I've said it before: We're past the point Elon is solely responsible. We need to start looking at the blatant negligence of government officials at both state and federal levels for letting him get away with it for so long. We are so far past the point anyone could possibly believe anyone letting this continue has good intentions.
userbinator 3y ago
More like "Fool, Self-Driving".
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fastball 3y ago
It is (was?) actually called Full Self-Driving Beta, which to an engineer does explicitly indicate that bugs are to be expected. Not sure if they're still calling it Beta, but at the time of this accident they certainly were.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Is that like 'fresh frozen'? If it's Beta, then it's 'Beta Self-driving'. Not yet 'Full'. Obviously. Still doubletalk. Still indefensible.
ethagknight 3y ago
Nikola, the EV truck company, was full of shit. The truck couldn't drive under its own power. Tesla FSD on the other hand, is just not as good as advertised. Kinda like how a Lindt Truffle isn't velvety bliss, or a 787 Dreamliner is still hard to sleep on, or even BMW's excessively superlative "ultimate driving machine." The 4 cylinder Z3 was a terrible vehicle. One can wish FSD means perfection in every circumstance all the time, and Tesla certainly implied in its marketing that it is. In reality, FSD is really amazing at times and 'what-the-hell was it thinking' at times. But it does control speed, steering, braking, obstacle avoidance, traffic maneuvering, parking, navigation in a manner that, yes, I would call "Full Self Driving." It is very far from perfect, and Tesla has certainly communicated it as being better than it really is. there's a high dose of caveat emptor, but FSD does a lot more than any other car I've ever driven or owned. The fact that I will not let it attempt to navigate certain intersections, either out of embarrassment or risk of getting hit, does not diminish the fact that my car will give it the ol' college try. I do think Tesla should get a substantial hand slap though, and should be required to give an extended free trial to everyone to see exactly what it is that FSD can and cannot do, and also give those who purchased FSD outright an extended refund window.
- frob 3y ago
  The difference between saying your car is "the ultimate driving experience" and that your car has a "full self driving" mode is the difference between puffery and straight up fraud.
  - ethagknight 3y ago
    One should be taken literally in every circumstance, but the other shouldn't?
    - TheAlchemist 3y ago
      How do you take 'ultimate driving experience' literally ? Taking your initial analogy, it's the difference between not sleeping well in the 787 Dreamliner, vs said Dreamliner crashing before landing.

duskwuff 3y ago

And Tesla was even clearer about the intended capabilities of FSD in their 2016 promo video: > "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." No reasonable person would interpret that as coming with the implied caveat of "but that person might need to intervene at any moment".

l33t7332273 3y ago

I agree completely that claiming full self driving is a marketing term that means anything but complete autonomy is just a straight up lie.

TheAlchemist 3y ago

It's mind blowing what Tesla and Musk are allowed to do. And don't get me started about the doubletalk ! Musk clearly thinks he's above the law now (and for some reason, this seems to be the case for now). There are countless other examples, some are not even debatable. For example, when he bought the first 9% of Twitter. Legally, he should have disclose that at 5% threshold - which he did not. It's estimated that it saved him ~$150 million. There is nothing to debate - the law is clear, and he intentionally did not disclose his buying. One would think that it's not a complicated case, yet still 1 year after there is nothing done ! Nothing. SEC is suing him now, but ... not really for wrongdoing ! They want to bring him to testify. I don't know what's going on, but clearly he's getting a lot of free passes.

polygamous_bat 3y ago
That’s the problem when you get too big, isn’t it? Musk now has $149 million extra that he can spend on fighting legal battles with the SEC and still come out at least a million ahead. Does the SEC have $149m in spare resources to fight this fight? Unfortunately this is the math I believe the enforcement agencies have to do.
- deadbolt 3y ago
  What does $149M get you in a legal argument? I realize this must seem like a very naive question, but if the law said "you must disclose at 5%", and someone fails to do so, shouldn't that be a simple case?

malablaster 3y ago

Between the lies about battery capacity and this, Tesla is not to be trusted.

ocdtrekkie 3y ago

I've said it before: We're past the point Elon is solely responsible. We need to start looking at the blatant negligence of government officials at both state and federal levels for letting him get away with it for so long. We are so far past the point anyone could possibly believe anyone letting this continue has good intentions.

userbinator 3y ago

More like "Fool, Self-Driving".

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

fastball 3y ago

It is (was?) actually called Full Self-Driving Beta, which to an engineer does explicitly indicate that bugs are to be expected. Not sure if they're still calling it Beta, but at the time of this accident they certainly were.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Is that like 'fresh frozen'? If it's Beta, then it's 'Beta Self-driving'. Not yet 'Full'. Obviously. Still doubletalk. Still indefensible.

ethagknight 3y ago

Nikola, the EV truck company, was full of shit. The truck couldn't drive under its own power. Tesla FSD on the other hand, is just not as good as advertised. Kinda like how a Lindt Truffle isn't velvety bliss, or a 787 Dreamliner is still hard to sleep on, or even BMW's excessively superlative "ultimate driving machine." The 4 cylinder Z3 was a terrible vehicle. One can wish FSD means perfection in every circumstance all the time, and Tesla certainly implied in its marketing that it is. In reality, FSD is really amazing at times and 'what-the-hell was it thinking' at times. But it does control speed, steering, braking, obstacle avoidance, traffic maneuvering, parking, navigation in a manner that, yes, I would call "Full Self Driving." It is very far from perfect, and Tesla has certainly communicated it as being better than it really is. there's a high dose of caveat emptor, but FSD does a lot more than any other car I've ever driven or owned. The fact that I will not let it attempt to navigate certain intersections, either out of embarrassment or risk of getting hit, does not diminish the fact that my car will give it the ol' college try. I do think Tesla should get a substantial hand slap though, and should be required to give an extended free trial to everyone to see exactly what it is that FSD can and cannot do, and also give those who purchased FSD outright an extended refund window.

frob 3y ago
The difference between saying your car is "the ultimate driving experience" and that your car has a "full self driving" mode is the difference between puffery and straight up fraud.
- ethagknight 3y ago
  One should be taken literally in every circumstance, but the other shouldn't?
  - TheAlchemist 3y ago
    How do you take 'ultimate driving experience' literally ? Taking your initial analogy, it's the difference between not sleeping well in the 787 Dreamliner, vs said Dreamliner crashing before landing.