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> We are fortunate to have them and helping disabled people take advantage of the parks is an excellent idea. Joseph Sax is rolling in his grave.

nickff 3y ago
>"Joseph Sax is rolling in his grave." Could you please elaborate, I don't know anything about Joseph Sax, and his Wikipedia entry doesn't contain anything that explains your comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sax
- Alex3917 3y ago
  He wrote a famous book called Mountains Without Handrails: https://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Without-Handrails-Reflections-National/dp/B009ONQPN0/ https://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Without-Handrails-Reflectio... It's been 20 years since I read it, but iirc he is musing about whether things like paving the trails around Niagara falls to make them handicap accessible diminishes our ability to be awed by the natural experience. I may well be mischaracterizing it, so if you want to read it yourself the whole thing appears to be online here: https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/contents.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/contents.ht...
  - eichin 3y ago
    https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/chap6.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/chap6.htm in particular: > One does not provide such an opportunity for older people or inexperienced visitors by building a highway to the top of a mountain. Rather we can assure that places that are accessible to them are not so deprived of their natural qualities as to put such an experience beyond their reach. which suggests that he'd be fine with things like the pass program.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    The thing is that like 90% of national park visitors will never venture more than a half mile from their car. We should be making the experience as accessible as possible for those visitors while also preserving the vast majority of the open space for backcountry users. The Paradise Visitor Center at Mt Rainier does a nice job striking this balance. Visitors can get an excellent view of the mountain by driving to the parking lot. There is a paved path to a popular waterfall. Beyond that, hikers can have a more typical trail hiking experience and by the time you are about 4-5 miles from the parking lot, it's a proper wilderness experience.
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      The problem is national parks have a vendetta against dogs. I love out of my car with my dog. If a place doesn’t allow dogs, it doesn’t allow me. Granted, I prefer BLM, FWS, and FS land anyways. But don’t forget that NPS adamantly excludes whole classes of people.
      - davkan 3y ago
        High traffic nature areas are ruined by selfish dog owners. My favorite is spring on my local trails when every time you go out you get to enjoy progressively more dog poop revealed right on the side of the trail as the snow recedes. With the volume of visitors popular National parks see there wouldn’t 50ft of path free of dog poop even if they went out of their way to mitigate it.
        explaininjs 3y ago
        Ah yes, the ol’ “some people can’t behave, so everyone of their ilk must be discriminated against” approach. Instead, I’d recommend requiring dogs be accompanied by a dedicated shit-carrying pack and bags sufficient for it. Similar to how humans are required to have bear canisters in some parts. (indeed some places require humans to carry shit bags for themselves!)
        davkan 3y ago
  - explaininjs 3y ago
    Those who appreciate the raw outdoors will know that National Parks are best compared to amusement parks. Family friendly, tons of rules and regulations you must follow, expensive, but granted: some really cool vistas too. Much better is BLM land, US Forest Service land, and (sometimes) US Fish and Wildlife Service land. Free, generally unregulated, vast, and exceedingly beautiful in its own right.

nickff 3y ago

>"Joseph Sax is rolling in his grave." Could you please elaborate, I don't know anything about Joseph Sax, and his Wikipedia entry doesn't contain anything that explains your comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sax

Alex3917 3y ago
He wrote a famous book called Mountains Without Handrails: https://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Without-Handrails-Reflections-National/dp/B009ONQPN0/ https://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Without-Handrails-Reflectio... It's been 20 years since I read it, but iirc he is musing about whether things like paving the trails around Niagara falls to make them handicap accessible diminishes our ability to be awed by the natural experience. I may well be mischaracterizing it, so if you want to read it yourself the whole thing appears to be online here: https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/contents.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/contents.ht...
- eichin 3y ago
  https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/chap6.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/sax/chap6.htm in particular: > One does not provide such an opportunity for older people or inexperienced visitors by building a highway to the top of a mountain. Rather we can assure that places that are accessible to them are not so deprived of their natural qualities as to put such an experience beyond their reach. which suggests that he'd be fine with things like the pass program.
- brewdad 3y ago
  The thing is that like 90% of national park visitors will never venture more than a half mile from their car. We should be making the experience as accessible as possible for those visitors while also preserving the vast majority of the open space for backcountry users. The Paradise Visitor Center at Mt Rainier does a nice job striking this balance. Visitors can get an excellent view of the mountain by driving to the parking lot. There is a paved path to a popular waterfall. Beyond that, hikers can have a more typical trail hiking experience and by the time you are about 4-5 miles from the parking lot, it's a proper wilderness experience.
  - explaininjs 3y ago
    The problem is national parks have a vendetta against dogs. I love out of my car with my dog. If a place doesn’t allow dogs, it doesn’t allow me. Granted, I prefer BLM, FWS, and FS land anyways. But don’t forget that NPS adamantly excludes whole classes of people.
    - davkan 3y ago
      High traffic nature areas are ruined by selfish dog owners. My favorite is spring on my local trails when every time you go out you get to enjoy progressively more dog poop revealed right on the side of the trail as the snow recedes. With the volume of visitors popular National parks see there wouldn’t 50ft of path free of dog poop even if they went out of their way to mitigate it.
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        Ah yes, the ol’ “some people can’t behave, so everyone of their ilk must be discriminated against” approach. Instead, I’d recommend requiring dogs be accompanied by a dedicated shit-carrying pack and bags sufficient for it. Similar to how humans are required to have bear canisters in some parts. (indeed some places require humans to carry shit bags for themselves!)
        davkan 3y ago
- explaininjs 3y ago
  Those who appreciate the raw outdoors will know that National Parks are best compared to amusement parks. Family friendly, tons of rules and regulations you must follow, expensive, but granted: some really cool vistas too. Much better is BLM land, US Forest Service land, and (sometimes) US Fish and Wildlife Service land. Free, generally unregulated, vast, and exceedingly beautiful in its own right.