5 ms·

IRS says Microsoft owes an additional $29B in back taxes

111 points by donohoe 3y ago

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
When you are a top 10 company, will the IRS converse & let you know why they think you owe what they say you do? Or is it like the rest of us plebes where we only ever guess why their numbers are different & what fines we might have been dinged by?
- dgrin91 3y ago
  Even the plebs can talk with the IRS. They actually have call centers & dispute processes. The key factor is that most of us plebs don't have the time, knowledge, energy or willingness to go through the process. Microsoft will hire some lawyers/accounts (or already has inhouse) to handle it.
- PopAlongKid 3y ago
  > like the rest of us plebes where we only ever guess why their numbers are different & what fines we might have been dinged by? That is not true. The IRS sends letters through U.S. mail when they propose a change to the return you filed, and whether there is a refund or additional balance due, they indicate what numbers differ and what penalties, if any, were applied. You can then either accept the change, or disagree and reply with your position on the matter. I've seen dozens of such letters over the years (both my own and others).
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    I've seen a bunch of such letters, thankfully with mostly small adjustments and most mysterious to me often giving me some money back. But I've never felt like I've had any clue why things were adjusted or what issues there were. I'm probably way off base & things aren't actually so bad, but I feel like I get a lot of sympathetic "me too"'s about this in social circles. Maybe a good number of people are just holding their tongues & actually understand & learn from their errors over time, but I don't feel like my tax filing skills have ever improved.
    - grepfru_it 3y ago
      Just got a letter from the irs explaining the problem. We just called our CPA and they did their due diligence. In this case it was our error. The last time it was the IRS’ error. Both times it was very clear what the problem was. If your taxes are more complex then expect more confusion. But at that point you should probably hire a CPA
    - tedunangst 3y ago
      How many people actually read the letter?
      - henriquez 3y ago
        If you get a letter from the IRS you would be wise to read it.
        tedunangst 3y ago
        I would agree, but it seems there are many internet people who complain about receiving letters they can't or won't read.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    While reminding you, interest is accumulating.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  The IRS will let you know what they think you owe. They will tell you why. And, AFAIK, tends to waive fines if the mistake was honest and quickly corrected.
  - jaybeavers 3y ago
    This was my experience too. While it takes a good long while to get resolved, because my mistakes were accidental and I talked it through and followed the process, I was dealt with politely and given grace. All in all a scary but good experience.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Wow that's nice. In Holland the government always assumes you did it on purpose even though usually that isn't actually the case.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  Yes, there are special teams for these huge companies because their tax affairs are so complicated. Typically these very large orgs will also have dedicated relationship managers.
sansah 3y ago
Have they already started using (Microsoft's) AI to process those returns? As they said so. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/irs-plan-to-use-ai-may-affect-wealthy-taxpayers-heres-how.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/irs-plan-to-use-ai-may-affec... https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-to-restore-fairness-to-tax-system-with-inflation-reduction-act-funding-new-compliance-efforts https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-t...
wkat4242 3y ago
Government shutdown solved lol. That should cover it for a couple more months.
- BXlnt2EachOther 3y ago
  based on 2022 outlays (6.27T), it's unfortunately about 40 hours.
sharts 3y ago
So send the majority shareholders and directors to jail until everything is paid in full, including interest on it. Corporations are people after all
- ryanschaefer 3y ago
  I’m baffled by your comment. This wouldn’t benefit the government at all. They just want their money and wouldn’t want to collapse a major American enterprise over money they will collect by any means necessary.
  - safety1st 3y ago
    It's just a classic social media hot take with no thought behind it, designed to get that instant sweet dopamine from upvotes rather than advance the discussion. 30 years of the web and we still haven't worked out how to discourage this (HN does a better job than most though)
    - Xelbair 3y ago
      It's a sign of people's discontent with corporation blatantly avoiding laws - especially taxation - when they get punished due to smallest mistakes. Hiding it from online discourse does not change that. I'm not disputing it that it's completely useless to do so online.
    - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
      I read it as simple satire. (Not simple in a judgmental sense, just, as plain old satire.)
    - PopAlongKid 3y ago
      >designed to get that instant sweet dopamine from upvotes I made a simple comment along the same lines in some other thread some time ago, and got nothing but downvotes. >It's just a classic social media hot take with no thought behind it Said the pot to the kettle /s >It's a sign of people's discontent with corporation blatantly avoiding laws - especially taxation - when they get punished due to smallest mistakes. +1 to this. Did you know that PG&E (California energy utility) is a convicted felon? It's meaningless to them. "The company was placed on probation in 2017 when it was convicted of six felony crimes connected to one of its natural gas pipelines that exploded in 2010, killing eight people. Since a company can’t go to prison for committing a crime, PG&E faced a $3 million fine and the maximum length of probation. "[0] [emphasis added] [0]https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/24/22899095/pge-menace-california-wildfires-probation-lifts https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/24/22899095/pge-menace-calif...
cdolan 3y ago
A question I have not seen but think is critical; How can the IRS go after anyone for taxes owed between 10 and 20 years ago? Is there no statute of limitations?
- TheChaplain 3y ago
  IMHO it doesn't make it a less of a crime if it happened 10+ years ago. Tax fraud is robbing society, and no matter who they are, everyone should pay a fair share if they wish to participate with said society.
  - manuelmoreale 3y ago
    Especially considering the amounts involved. Going after an individual because they made a mistake in their taxes 20 years ago is one thing. Going after one of the biggest company in the world because they have 29B to give it’s another.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    But there are statutes of limitations; evidence for your defense may have so far degraded or been unavailable.
  - pests 3y ago
    Taxes don't pay for society though. It's not like we raise taxes, use it to pay for society, and repeat. We decide to pay for it, do it, and maybe recoup some of the costs. That is why we have a deficit right? Microsoft not paying $30B did not cause society to lose out on $30B. That $30B got spent a long time ago. Now it will just sit contributing a little to the 11th digit of the national deficit.
    - Already__Taken 3y ago
      no? Powerful collection means creditors think the US will pay it debts. This is why Greece collapsed, the EU gave them lists of people to chace for tax and they didn't. So why help when shit hits the fan.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

111 points by donohoe 3y ago

When you are a top 10 company, will the IRS converse & let you know why they think you owe what they say you do? Or is it like the rest of us plebes where we only ever guess why their numbers are different & what fines we might have been dinged by?

dgrin91 3y ago
Even the plebs can talk with the IRS. They actually have call centers & dispute processes. The key factor is that most of us plebs don't have the time, knowledge, energy or willingness to go through the process. Microsoft will hire some lawyers/accounts (or already has inhouse) to handle it.
PopAlongKid 3y ago
> like the rest of us plebes where we only ever guess why their numbers are different & what fines we might have been dinged by? That is not true. The IRS sends letters through U.S. mail when they propose a change to the return you filed, and whether there is a refund or additional balance due, they indicate what numbers differ and what penalties, if any, were applied. You can then either accept the change, or disagree and reply with your position on the matter. I've seen dozens of such letters over the years (both my own and others).
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  I've seen a bunch of such letters, thankfully with mostly small adjustments and most mysterious to me often giving me some money back. But I've never felt like I've had any clue why things were adjusted or what issues there were. I'm probably way off base & things aren't actually so bad, but I feel like I get a lot of sympathetic "me too"'s about this in social circles. Maybe a good number of people are just holding their tongues & actually understand & learn from their errors over time, but I don't feel like my tax filing skills have ever improved.
  - grepfru_it 3y ago
    Just got a letter from the irs explaining the problem. We just called our CPA and they did their due diligence. In this case it was our error. The last time it was the IRS’ error. Both times it was very clear what the problem was. If your taxes are more complex then expect more confusion. But at that point you should probably hire a CPA
  - tedunangst 3y ago
    How many people actually read the letter?
    - henriquez 3y ago
      If you get a letter from the IRS you would be wise to read it.
      - tedunangst 3y ago
        I would agree, but it seems there are many internet people who complain about receiving letters they can't or won't read.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  While reminding you, interest is accumulating.
HWR_14 3y ago
The IRS will let you know what they think you owe. They will tell you why. And, AFAIK, tends to waive fines if the mistake was honest and quickly corrected.
- jaybeavers 3y ago
  This was my experience too. While it takes a good long while to get resolved, because my mistakes were accidental and I talked it through and followed the process, I was dealt with politely and given grace. All in all a scary but good experience.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Wow that's nice. In Holland the government always assumes you did it on purpose even though usually that isn't actually the case.
xyzzy123 3y ago
Yes, there are special teams for these huge companies because their tax affairs are so complicated. Typically these very large orgs will also have dedicated relationship managers.

sansah 3y ago

Have they already started using (Microsoft's) AI to process those returns? As they said so. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/irs-plan-to-use-ai-may-affect-wealthy-taxpayers-heres-how.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/irs-plan-to-use-ai-may-affec... https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-to-restore-fairness-to-tax-system-with-inflation-reduction-act-funding-new-compliance-efforts https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-t...

wkat4242 3y ago

Government shutdown solved lol. That should cover it for a couple more months.

BXlnt2EachOther 3y ago
based on 2022 outlays (6.27T), it's unfortunately about 40 hours.

sharts 3y ago

So send the majority shareholders and directors to jail until everything is paid in full, including interest on it. Corporations are people after all

ryanschaefer 3y ago
I’m baffled by your comment. This wouldn’t benefit the government at all. They just want their money and wouldn’t want to collapse a major American enterprise over money they will collect by any means necessary.
- safety1st 3y ago
  It's just a classic social media hot take with no thought behind it, designed to get that instant sweet dopamine from upvotes rather than advance the discussion. 30 years of the web and we still haven't worked out how to discourage this (HN does a better job than most though)
  - Xelbair 3y ago
    It's a sign of people's discontent with corporation blatantly avoiding laws - especially taxation - when they get punished due to smallest mistakes. Hiding it from online discourse does not change that. I'm not disputing it that it's completely useless to do so online.
  - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
    I read it as simple satire. (Not simple in a judgmental sense, just, as plain old satire.)
  - PopAlongKid 3y ago
    >designed to get that instant sweet dopamine from upvotes I made a simple comment along the same lines in some other thread some time ago, and got nothing but downvotes. >It's just a classic social media hot take with no thought behind it Said the pot to the kettle /s >It's a sign of people's discontent with corporation blatantly avoiding laws - especially taxation - when they get punished due to smallest mistakes. +1 to this. Did you know that PG&E (California energy utility) is a convicted felon? It's meaningless to them. "The company was placed on probation in 2017 when it was convicted of six felony crimes connected to one of its natural gas pipelines that exploded in 2010, killing eight people. Since a company can’t go to prison for committing a crime, PG&E faced a $3 million fine and the maximum length of probation. "[0] [emphasis added] [0]https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/24/22899095/pge-menace-california-wildfires-probation-lifts https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/24/22899095/pge-menace-calif...

cdolan 3y ago

A question I have not seen but think is critical; How can the IRS go after anyone for taxes owed between 10 and 20 years ago? Is there no statute of limitations?

TheChaplain 3y ago
IMHO it doesn't make it a less of a crime if it happened 10+ years ago. Tax fraud is robbing society, and no matter who they are, everyone should pay a fair share if they wish to participate with said society.
- manuelmoreale 3y ago
  Especially considering the amounts involved. Going after an individual because they made a mistake in their taxes 20 years ago is one thing. Going after one of the biggest company in the world because they have 29B to give it’s another.
- kuchenbecker 3y ago
  But there are statutes of limitations; evidence for your defense may have so far degraded or been unavailable.
- pests 3y ago
  Taxes don't pay for society though. It's not like we raise taxes, use it to pay for society, and repeat. We decide to pay for it, do it, and maybe recoup some of the costs. That is why we have a deficit right? Microsoft not paying $30B did not cause society to lose out on $30B. That $30B got spent a long time ago. Now it will just sit contributing a little to the 11th digit of the national deficit.
  - Already__Taken 3y ago
    no? Powerful collection means creditors think the US will pay it debts. This is why Greece collapsed, the EU gave them lists of people to chace for tax and they didn't. So why help when shit hits the fan.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]