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Please disrupt the personal satellite beacon market. Currently the only options are proprietary devices that cost several hundred dollars AND a subscription pl

Please disrupt the personal satellite beacon market. Currently the only options are proprietary devices that cost several hundred dollars AND a subscription plan that will run you $12 a month or more.

stetrain 3y ago
New iPhones include satellite SOS and location features. The monthly cost has not been announced yet, all phones with this feature are still in the 2-year free trial period. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213426 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213426 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi...
- drunner 3y ago
  SOS only being a key point I missed in my first post. Yes, thankfully they are launching it, but SOS only is a drag.
  - coder543 3y ago
    It’s not SOS only. You can also update your location in the Find My app, so your friends/family can keep track of you on a backpacking trip. With iPhone 15, they also introduced the ability to call for roadside assistance from AAA via satellite too. (I’m not sure if this is also available on 14 now or not.)
    - kccqzy 3y ago
      Are you sure Find My uses satellite connectivity? I don't think so. Apple says this https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ > If your missing device can’t connect to the internet or has little to no battery life, the Find My app can still help you track it down using the Find My network — hundreds of millions of iPhone, iPad, and Mac devices around the world. So this isn't going to help you in the wilderness.
      - pests 3y ago
        https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi... The passage you quoted is talking about the iDevice-to-iDevice communication that can happen behind the scenes allowing you to find a lost phone in the wilderness if someone else so happens to walk by the phone.
      - virtuallynathan 3y ago
        It does, you can update it via Satellite. I've done it... (it's a manually triggered operation)
      - robbiet480 3y ago
        Yes, you can update your Find My location via satellite https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi...
    - freeAgent 3y ago
      14s got it too. Neat! https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213886 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213886
  - stetrain 3y ago
    Yeah, they are slowly rolling out new features like this year they added roadside assistance requests. Having a limited number of plain text message requests would be nice as well, maybe there will be more options once they add paid tiers.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  Can probably expect Android devices to follow soon https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-electronics-introduces-standardized-5g-ntn-modem-technology-to-power-smartphone-satellite-communication/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-e...
  - lxgr 3y ago
    It seems like from a purely technical point of view, Qualcomm got the best deal in this space (i.e. one with Iridium, which is currently the only provider with 100% global coverage): https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/01/qualcomm-introduces-snapdragon-satellite--the-world-s-first-sate https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/01/qualcomm-intr...
- frederikvs 3y ago
  There's a recent article about a climber who had to use this iPhone SOS feature. Turns out that actually getting in contact with emergency services is not easy - even though the satellite communications worked perfectly. There was a lot of back and forth over the system, but it did not help at all. The thing that saved her was one 40 character message to a friend. Because apparently you get one of those, and no replies... https://www.climbing.com/news/iphone-sos-button-saves-injured-climber/ https://www.climbing.com/news/iphone-sos-button-saves-injure...
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Sounds like the phone SOS service doesn't really have its act together yet based on that sample size of one.
  - hcurtiss 3y ago
    My wife and I and our two kids do a fair amount of back-country white water rafting. After arriving at a very remote take-out with no car and no cell service after a five day float (and running low on food and water), we went ahead and bought an actual satellite phone. It’s a game changer. Cost about $400 used and we have it refreshing quarterly on BlueCosmo for $99. It’s awesome, and cheap insurance relative to the risk.
    - pnpnp 3y ago
      $99 quarterly sounds like a good deal - was this with Iridium? That's unfortunately the only network that works well for my use-case. I currently pay for an inReach Messenger, and use it on a weekly basis. The $12/mo base cost is peanuts for what it actually provides me.
      - hcurtiss 3y ago
        No, it's Inmarsat (IsatPhone 2).
        pnpnp 3y ago
- crossroadsguy 3y ago
  Whenever I hear of this feature on an iPhone I think of the stellar iPhone battery life while it has probably generously been used for photos and location services etc.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ghaff 3y ago
Which isn't a lot if it's something you use all the time. Of course, for a lot of people this sort of function makes it hard to justify a dedicated device and even a lower-tier subscription for very occasional use.
lxgr 3y ago
It’s more like $200-300 for the device and $5-8 per month for service these days. Given the value in an emergency, I’d consider that fair! And if you really only care about calling emergency services in the backcountry or at sea, you can always get a PLB (which have no recurring fees at all).
- sneak 3y ago
  PLBs are also several hundred dollars and have an expiration date.
- nroets 3y ago
  The most valuable use case is not emergencies, search and rescue. It's tracking vehicles (big and small) in third world countries with the aim of support, crime detection, asset recovery and law enforcement.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Why third world countries? Terrestrial cell coverage is a function of population density much more than anything. In fact, I'd expect rural areas in the US and Candada to benefit from this just as much, if not more.
- grecy 3y ago
  > And if you really only care about calling emergency services in the backcountry or at sea, you can always get a PLB (which have no recurring fees at all). In the wilderness of Yukon and Alaksa we found we didn't need to call emergency services, but it was very handy to contact friends. "I'm very stuck, but fine, come get me". "I shot a moose, it would be great if you'd come and help me quarter it." "We're perfectly fine, but delayed a couple of days." Things like that are what we used our gen 1 spot for, and it was great.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Even in a serious situation, there's value in being able to coordinate with would-be rescuers. I'm in a bit of a pickle with a twisted ankle and I'm really going to have trouble walking all the way out by myself but I have food and water is a different situation from I've fallen 40 feet and conscious but have a broken leg and am getting really cold.
tenuousemphasis 3y ago
For an actual emergency beacon you don't need a subscription. ResQLink starts at $350 and the battery lasts 5 years before it needs to be replaced. No monthly fees.
hirundo 3y ago
My ResQLink does not require a subscription. https://www.acrartex.com/resqlink-personal-locator-beacons/ https://www.acrartex.com/resqlink-personal-locator-beacons/
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> currently the only options are proprietary devices that cost several hundred dollars AND a subscription plan that will run you $12 a month or more Consider a 406 MHz PLB [1][2][3]. Several hundred dollars. But no subscription fee. They're terribly marketed, a vacuum Garmin et al happily fill. And you can't send text messages. But as an emergency beacon, they are best in class. (Garmin transmits at <2 watts. Cell phones maybe 125 mW. 406s, meanwhile, scream at the sky at 5+ watts; that's in class with a cell tower.) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=37850377 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=37850377 [2] https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency-406-beacons/ https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency-406-beacons/ [3] https://www.rei.com/product/161982/acr-electronics-resqlink-400-personal-locator-beacon?color=ACRTREUSE https://www.rei.com/product/161982/acr-electronics-resqlink-...
- lxgr 3y ago
  On the other hand, Garmin/InReach use Iridium, which has safety-critical communication as its primary mission and provides it using a network featuring inter-satellite message routing. COSPAS-SARSAT is usually a secondary payload of other satellites, is store-and-forward (i.e. if you're far from a ground station, it might take a while for a satellite to forward your emergency signal), and for most (but see [1]!) PLBs does not offer a return channel, i.e. you won't know whether your signal actually made it through or whether you'll need to keep moving to get line-of-sight. > Garmin transmits at <2 watts. Cell phones maybe 125 mW. 406s, meanwhile, scream at the sky at 5+ watts; that's in class with a cell tower. They use exactly as much transmit power as they need to. Importantly, Iridium modems get instant feedback on whether their transmission has made it through and can retransmit if required. Screaming isn't always the best way to be heard :) [1] https://www.euspa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/first-galileo-return-link-service-personal-location-beacon-plb-be-released-europe https://www.euspa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/first-galileo-retu...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > featuring inter-satellite message routing I think Iridium can handle four calls at a time. In any case, you don't want to be reduced by Siberia from Alaska. > use exactly as much transmit power as they need to Garmins have a ceiling. Terrain attenuates. There are more places you will be alone with a Garmin than a 406 MHz PLB. > Iridium modems get instant feedback on whether their transmission has made it through and can retransmit if required 406 MHz does this [1]. Would love to hear anecdotes, ideally from SAR, where this saved a life versus providing comfort. [1] https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-view-rls-personal-locator-beacon/ https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-view-rls-personal...
tootie 3y ago
Isn't Amazon about to launch their competitor?
- wmf 3y ago
  Amazon hasn't announced any direct-to-phone capability.
oldbbsnickname 3y ago
You're using the wrong product. Spot basic beaconing is $2.50/month. If you also need a PLB, don't cheap out on a safety product. But if you're wanting reliable Gigabit unlimited data globally for <$1000/month, then you're asking for something for nothing.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  Where do you see $2.50? https://www.findmespot.com/en-us/products-services/spot-gen4#service-plans https://www.findmespot.com/en-us/products-services/spot-gen4... says $11.95/mo for basic.
mtreis86 3y ago
Its more expensive up front, in time cash and effort, but amateur radio aprs beacons are free to use for amateur radio operators and there are enough satellites with repeaters to make it a viable option in terms of it working anywhere.

stetrain 3y ago

New iPhones include satellite SOS and location features. The monthly cost has not been announced yet, all phones with this feature are still in the 2-year free trial period. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213426 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213426 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi...

drunner 3y ago
SOS only being a key point I missed in my first post. Yes, thankfully they are launching it, but SOS only is a drag.
- coder543 3y ago
  It’s not SOS only. You can also update your location in the Find My app, so your friends/family can keep track of you on a backpacking trip. With iPhone 15, they also introduced the ability to call for roadside assistance from AAA via satellite too. (I’m not sure if this is also available on 14 now or not.)
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    Are you sure Find My uses satellite connectivity? I don't think so. Apple says this https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ > If your missing device can’t connect to the internet or has little to no battery life, the Find My app can still help you track it down using the Find My network — hundreds of millions of iPhone, iPad, and Mac devices around the world. So this isn't going to help you in the wilderness.
    - pests 3y ago
      https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi... The passage you quoted is talking about the iDevice-to-iDevice communication that can happen behind the scenes allowing you to find a lost phone in the wilderness if someone else so happens to walk by the phone.
    - virtuallynathan 3y ago
      It does, you can update it via Satellite. I've done it... (it's a manually triggered operation)
    - robbiet480 3y ago
      Yes, you can update your Find My location via satellite https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-via-satellite-iph2aac8ae20/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/send-your-location-vi...
  - freeAgent 3y ago
    14s got it too. Neat! https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213886 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213886
- stetrain 3y ago
  Yeah, they are slowly rolling out new features like this year they added roadside assistance requests. Having a limited number of plain text message requests would be nice as well, maybe there will be more options once they add paid tiers.
Xeamek 3y ago
Can probably expect Android devices to follow soon https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-electronics-introduces-standardized-5g-ntn-modem-technology-to-power-smartphone-satellite-communication/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-e...
- lxgr 3y ago
  It seems like from a purely technical point of view, Qualcomm got the best deal in this space (i.e. one with Iridium, which is currently the only provider with 100% global coverage): https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/01/qualcomm-introduces-snapdragon-satellite--the-world-s-first-sate https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/01/qualcomm-intr...
frederikvs 3y ago
There's a recent article about a climber who had to use this iPhone SOS feature. Turns out that actually getting in contact with emergency services is not easy - even though the satellite communications worked perfectly. There was a lot of back and forth over the system, but it did not help at all. The thing that saved her was one 40 character message to a friend. Because apparently you get one of those, and no replies... https://www.climbing.com/news/iphone-sos-button-saves-injured-climber/ https://www.climbing.com/news/iphone-sos-button-saves-injure...
- ghaff 3y ago
  Sounds like the phone SOS service doesn't really have its act together yet based on that sample size of one.
- hcurtiss 3y ago
  My wife and I and our two kids do a fair amount of back-country white water rafting. After arriving at a very remote take-out with no car and no cell service after a five day float (and running low on food and water), we went ahead and bought an actual satellite phone. It’s a game changer. Cost about $400 used and we have it refreshing quarterly on BlueCosmo for $99. It’s awesome, and cheap insurance relative to the risk.
  - pnpnp 3y ago
    $99 quarterly sounds like a good deal - was this with Iridium? That's unfortunately the only network that works well for my use-case. I currently pay for an inReach Messenger, and use it on a weekly basis. The $12/mo base cost is peanuts for what it actually provides me.
    - hcurtiss 3y ago
      No, it's Inmarsat (IsatPhone 2).
      - pnpnp 3y ago
crossroadsguy 3y ago
Whenever I hear of this feature on an iPhone I think of the stellar iPhone battery life while it has probably generously been used for photos and location services etc.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ghaff 3y ago

Which isn't a lot if it's something you use all the time. Of course, for a lot of people this sort of function makes it hard to justify a dedicated device and even a lower-tier subscription for very occasional use.

lxgr 3y ago

It’s more like $200-300 for the device and $5-8 per month for service these days. Given the value in an emergency, I’d consider that fair! And if you really only care about calling emergency services in the backcountry or at sea, you can always get a PLB (which have no recurring fees at all).

sneak 3y ago
PLBs are also several hundred dollars and have an expiration date.
nroets 3y ago
The most valuable use case is not emergencies, search and rescue. It's tracking vehicles (big and small) in third world countries with the aim of support, crime detection, asset recovery and law enforcement.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Why third world countries? Terrestrial cell coverage is a function of population density much more than anything. In fact, I'd expect rural areas in the US and Candada to benefit from this just as much, if not more.
grecy 3y ago
> And if you really only care about calling emergency services in the backcountry or at sea, you can always get a PLB (which have no recurring fees at all). In the wilderness of Yukon and Alaksa we found we didn't need to call emergency services, but it was very handy to contact friends. "I'm very stuck, but fine, come get me". "I shot a moose, it would be great if you'd come and help me quarter it." "We're perfectly fine, but delayed a couple of days." Things like that are what we used our gen 1 spot for, and it was great.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Even in a serious situation, there's value in being able to coordinate with would-be rescuers. I'm in a bit of a pickle with a twisted ankle and I'm really going to have trouble walking all the way out by myself but I have food and water is a different situation from I've fallen 40 feet and conscious but have a broken leg and am getting really cold.

tenuousemphasis 3y ago

For an actual emergency beacon you don't need a subscription. ResQLink starts at $350 and the battery lasts 5 years before it needs to be replaced. No monthly fees.

hirundo 3y ago

My ResQLink does not require a subscription. https://www.acrartex.com/resqlink-personal-locator-beacons/ https://www.acrartex.com/resqlink-personal-locator-beacons/

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> currently the only options are proprietary devices that cost several hundred dollars AND a subscription plan that will run you $12 a month or more Consider a 406 MHz PLB [1][2][3]. Several hundred dollars. But no subscription fee. They're terribly marketed, a vacuum Garmin et al happily fill. And you can't send text messages. But as an emergency beacon, they are best in class. (Garmin transmits at <2 watts. Cell phones maybe 125 mW. 406s, meanwhile, scream at the sky at 5+ watts; that's in class with a cell tower.) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=37850377 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=37850377 [2] https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency-406-beacons/ https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency-406-beacons/ [3] https://www.rei.com/product/161982/acr-electronics-resqlink-400-personal-locator-beacon?color=ACRTREUSE https://www.rei.com/product/161982/acr-electronics-resqlink-...

lxgr 3y ago
On the other hand, Garmin/InReach use Iridium, which has safety-critical communication as its primary mission and provides it using a network featuring inter-satellite message routing. COSPAS-SARSAT is usually a secondary payload of other satellites, is store-and-forward (i.e. if you're far from a ground station, it might take a while for a satellite to forward your emergency signal), and for most (but see [1]!) PLBs does not offer a return channel, i.e. you won't know whether your signal actually made it through or whether you'll need to keep moving to get line-of-sight. > Garmin transmits at <2 watts. Cell phones maybe 125 mW. 406s, meanwhile, scream at the sky at 5+ watts; that's in class with a cell tower. They use exactly as much transmit power as they need to. Importantly, Iridium modems get instant feedback on whether their transmission has made it through and can retransmit if required. Screaming isn't always the best way to be heard :) [1] https://www.euspa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/first-galileo-return-link-service-personal-location-beacon-plb-be-released-europe https://www.euspa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/first-galileo-retu...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > featuring inter-satellite message routing I think Iridium can handle four calls at a time. In any case, you don't want to be reduced by Siberia from Alaska. > use exactly as much transmit power as they need to Garmins have a ceiling. Terrain attenuates. There are more places you will be alone with a Garmin than a 406 MHz PLB. > Iridium modems get instant feedback on whether their transmission has made it through and can retransmit if required 406 MHz does this [1]. Would love to hear anecdotes, ideally from SAR, where this saved a life versus providing comfort. [1] https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-view-rls-personal-locator-beacon/ https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-view-rls-personal...

tootie 3y ago

Isn't Amazon about to launch their competitor?

wmf 3y ago
Amazon hasn't announced any direct-to-phone capability.

oldbbsnickname 3y ago

You're using the wrong product. Spot basic beaconing is $2.50/month. If you also need a PLB, don't cheap out on a safety product. But if you're wanting reliable Gigabit unlimited data globally for <$1000/month, then you're asking for something for nothing.

yencabulator 3y ago
Where do you see $2.50? https://www.findmespot.com/en-us/products-services/spot-gen4#service-plans https://www.findmespot.com/en-us/products-services/spot-gen4... says $11.95/mo for basic.

mtreis86 3y ago

Its more expensive up front, in time cash and effort, but amateur radio aprs beacons are free to use for amateur radio operators and there are enough satellites with repeaters to make it a viable option in terms of it working anywhere.