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The Digital Services Act is about enforcing rules that are already in place. For example, traditional media has always been bound to certain rules. > These are

The Digital Services Act is about enforcing rules that are already in place. For example, traditional media has always been bound to certain rules. > These are dissemination of illegal content, negative effects on certain fundamental rights (privacy, freedom of expression, prohibition on discrimination and the rights of a child), and intentional manipulation of the services […] Source: https://policyreview.info/articles/news/digital-services-act-risk-based-regulation-online-platforms/1606 https://policyreview.info/articles/news/digital-services-act... If enough countries in the EU shift their moral compass and then elect enough officials in the EU parliament and then change the laws and regulations you could say that it's a democratic decision to change the rules.

nvm0n2 3y ago
> If enough countries in the EU shift their moral compass and then elect enough officials in the EU parliament and then change the laws and regulations you could say that it's a democratic decision to change the rules. But that is impossible because the European Parliament constitutionally is not allowed to change the law. You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system, short of electing a national party that will simultaneously leave the EU and revert to its own currency in one step, something that is widely regarded as logistically difficult to impossible. This is a really, really common point of confusion. It's well past time to consider the way the EU names its institutions to be propaganda. The EU Parliament is not a Parliament. Write it out 100 times on a blackboard. EU policy does not reflect the will of Europeans, who aren't even close to being culturally homogenous enough to have such a will anyway.
- malermeister 3y ago
  > You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system You can. EU law is written by commissioners, which are appointed by national governments. You can change the commissioners by changing the national governments, which happens through elections.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    You cannot, because: 1. Each commissioner has their own dedicated area and portfolio, so if the problematic law is in some other commissioner's area then your vote is worth nothing. 2. Commissioners are appointed by governments only in theory. In practice the President reserves the right to veto any commissioner they don't like, and give or take their responsibilities them at will. This ability doesn't exist in the treaties but Juncker has admitted he did it all the time [1] and explicitly stated that it renders worthless "populism" and "insubordination" (what people like him call actual democracy). 3. Commissioners are required to take an oath of loyalty to the EU and explicitly promise to ignore any instructions from their governments of citizenship [2], so being able to appoint them - even if it actually worked - would grant national governments no real power. 4. Many of the key policies of the EU are decided by people who aren't appointed by countries anyway, e.g. the ECJ or ECB. So in practice there are no examples of countries meaningfully impacting EU policy by changing their commissioner, and national parties do not campaign on this basis. Again and again this point must be repeated. The EU is not honest about how it actually works. It is not a democracy. It has never been and never will be. Any mechanism or system that looks superficially democratic will turn out to be subtly broken or unusable on close inspection. [1] “Nobody knows this, but last time I rejected the candidacies of six of the Commissioners presented to me by national governments. Do remember that governments merely propose commissioners. It is the president of the Commission who accepts them and allocates their responsibilities. Whilst certain countries [sometimes]allow themselves a degree of insubordination, depending on who happens to be in power and the stage of the political cycle they are in”, he was “confident that in a few years’ time, these issues won’t be troubling us anymore” (Juncker) https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/eu-president-eurosceptics-blocked-jobs-regardless-election-results/ https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/eu-president-eurosceptics-blocked... [2] "I do solemnly undertake: to be completely independent in the performance of my duties, in the general interest of the Communities; in the performance of these duties, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other body" https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_487 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_...
    - malermeister 3y ago
      > 1. Each commissioner has their own dedicated area and portfolio, so if the problematic law is in some other commissioner's area then your vote is worth nothing. Of course your vote is worth something. It changes another commissioner with another portfolio. Just because every subset of the demos votes for a different official doesn't make it any less democratic. Similarly, in the US, a senator can be on a committee with a dedicated area and portfolio and you might not be able to influence their election if you live in the wrong state. > In practice the President reserves the right to veto any commissioner they don't like, and give or take their responsibilities them at will. This is common in presidential systems. I know for a fact it works that way in the US, but I'm pretty certain it does so in other systems as well. > This ability doesn't exist in the treaties. That's not the scandal you make it out to be. Plenty of democratic systems function more by convention than by written down law. Prime example is the UK, where a lot of constitutional law is nothing more than unwritten convention. The very existence of the office of the UK Prime Minister itself is not written down in law anywhere! [0] > 3. Commissioners are required to take an oath of loyalty to the EU and explicitly promise to ignore any instructions from their governments of citizenship [2] Of course they are, they're EU commissioners after all. US government officials take an oath to the US, too, and not the state they're from. > so being able to appoint them - even if it actually worked - would grant national governments no real power. Who said anything about granting national governments any power? That's not a prerequisite for a democratic system at the level above. > It is not a democracy. It has never been and never will be. Any mechanism or system that looks superficially democratic will turn out to be subtly broken or unusable on close inspection. None of your points are indicative of a lack of democracy. It might not be your preferred mode of democracy, but none of your complaints are unique to the EU, they're all features of other democratic systems as well. Reading between the lines, it seems like your main gripe is the weakening of the nation state in favor of a larger block. I understand that might make you unhappy, but it is not per se undemocratic as long as the larger block is democratic. I also happen to believe it's the right thing to do, Europe has been held back by petty national squabbles for way too long, it's time we finally unify to the superpower we're meant to be. [0] https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-co...

nvm0n2 3y ago

> If enough countries in the EU shift their moral compass and then elect enough officials in the EU parliament and then change the laws and regulations you could say that it's a democratic decision to change the rules. But that is impossible because the European Parliament constitutionally is not allowed to change the law. You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system, short of electing a national party that will simultaneously leave the EU and revert to its own currency in one step, something that is widely regarded as logistically difficult to impossible. This is a really, really common point of confusion. It's well past time to consider the way the EU names its institutions to be propaganda. The EU Parliament is not a Parliament. Write it out 100 times on a blackboard. EU policy does not reflect the will of Europeans, who aren't even close to being culturally homogenous enough to have such a will anyway.

malermeister 3y ago
> You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system You can. EU law is written by commissioners, which are appointed by national governments. You can change the commissioners by changing the national governments, which happens through elections.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  You cannot, because: 1. Each commissioner has their own dedicated area and portfolio, so if the problematic law is in some other commissioner's area then your vote is worth nothing. 2. Commissioners are appointed by governments only in theory. In practice the President reserves the right to veto any commissioner they don't like, and give or take their responsibilities them at will. This ability doesn't exist in the treaties but Juncker has admitted he did it all the time [1] and explicitly stated that it renders worthless "populism" and "insubordination" (what people like him call actual democracy). 3. Commissioners are required to take an oath of loyalty to the EU and explicitly promise to ignore any instructions from their governments of citizenship [2], so being able to appoint them - even if it actually worked - would grant national governments no real power. 4. Many of the key policies of the EU are decided by people who aren't appointed by countries anyway, e.g. the ECJ or ECB. So in practice there are no examples of countries meaningfully impacting EU policy by changing their commissioner, and national parties do not campaign on this basis. Again and again this point must be repeated. The EU is not honest about how it actually works. It is not a democracy. It has never been and never will be. Any mechanism or system that looks superficially democratic will turn out to be subtly broken or unusable on close inspection. [1] “Nobody knows this, but last time I rejected the candidacies of six of the Commissioners presented to me by national governments. Do remember that governments merely propose commissioners. It is the president of the Commission who accepts them and allocates their responsibilities. Whilst certain countries [sometimes]allow themselves a degree of insubordination, depending on who happens to be in power and the stage of the political cycle they are in”, he was “confident that in a few years’ time, these issues won’t be troubling us anymore” (Juncker) https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/eu-president-eurosceptics-blocked-jobs-regardless-election-results/ https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/eu-president-eurosceptics-blocked... [2] "I do solemnly undertake: to be completely independent in the performance of my duties, in the general interest of the Communities; in the performance of these duties, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other body" https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_487 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_...
  - malermeister 3y ago
    > 1. Each commissioner has their own dedicated area and portfolio, so if the problematic law is in some other commissioner's area then your vote is worth nothing. Of course your vote is worth something. It changes another commissioner with another portfolio. Just because every subset of the demos votes for a different official doesn't make it any less democratic. Similarly, in the US, a senator can be on a committee with a dedicated area and portfolio and you might not be able to influence their election if you live in the wrong state. > In practice the President reserves the right to veto any commissioner they don't like, and give or take their responsibilities them at will. This is common in presidential systems. I know for a fact it works that way in the US, but I'm pretty certain it does so in other systems as well. > This ability doesn't exist in the treaties. That's not the scandal you make it out to be. Plenty of democratic systems function more by convention than by written down law. Prime example is the UK, where a lot of constitutional law is nothing more than unwritten convention. The very existence of the office of the UK Prime Minister itself is not written down in law anywhere! [0] > 3. Commissioners are required to take an oath of loyalty to the EU and explicitly promise to ignore any instructions from their governments of citizenship [2] Of course they are, they're EU commissioners after all. US government officials take an oath to the US, too, and not the state they're from. > so being able to appoint them - even if it actually worked - would grant national governments no real power. Who said anything about granting national governments any power? That's not a prerequisite for a democratic system at the level above. > It is not a democracy. It has never been and never will be. Any mechanism or system that looks superficially democratic will turn out to be subtly broken or unusable on close inspection. None of your points are indicative of a lack of democracy. It might not be your preferred mode of democracy, but none of your complaints are unique to the EU, they're all features of other democratic systems as well. Reading between the lines, it seems like your main gripe is the weakening of the nation state in favor of a larger block. I understand that might make you unhappy, but it is not per se undemocratic as long as the larger block is democratic. I also happen to believe it's the right thing to do, Europe has been held back by petty national squabbles for way too long, it's time we finally unify to the superpower we're meant to be. [0] https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-co...