5 ms·

The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite fin

by hiatus 3y ago

The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite financial transaction.

datameta 3y ago
I think if anything availability increases, but may require more perceived effort (despite lower bar to discovery).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
unpopularopp 3y ago
>The diminishing availability of third places Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores" Not sure I see any of these diminishing. I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.
- justinator 3y ago
  Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too. Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones. Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite). One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy. And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns. Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).
  - michaelrpeskin 3y ago
    Heh, I know exactly which town you're talking about. I host my own little "third space" workout group after the gyms closed for lockdowns, and it's been super successful. If you want to ever stop by let me know.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    The explanation for all of these places closing down seems to be rent. They can't make enough money on being a third place to pay increasing rent to their greedy landlords. So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.
    - justinator 3y ago
      Money is a big factor and again it gets messy. I think the median cost of a house here is north of $800k. Rent is also high. Hard to hack it as a barista, librarian, book clerk, gym trainer, etc.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      > So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places And as with most 'modern' reboots, it's worse than the thing it replaces. Outdoor seating is worse than indoor, plus food trucks price gouge like crazy because they can.
    - justinator 3y ago
      >So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate. Everyone here owns $500 puffies so the drinks will flow (there's also an indoor space that's large). It's the anti-gay, anti-woman religion tie for me that makes me decide not to be a patron (not that I drink all that much...)
  - deanCommie 3y ago
    Much of what you listed is a consequence of the Internet, which COVID exacerbated. It's unfortunate but society always changes, and this is one of them. It's OK to accept it and allow it to happen. Except one: > Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with. This is worth fighting for. The internet is not a replacement for a library and more importantly librarians. Not only that but since so much of society is inaccessible without the internet anymore, we need to have public spaces with internet access. In my head we need to consider libraries on the same level of societal importance as police departments, firehalls, and hospitals. They all must be free and universally accessible or there's no point to the centuries of progress humanity has made. [0] [0] obligatory edit - police departments ARE overfunded due to illogical unsubstantiated fear-mongering, and because they are forced to do work that they should not be responsible for, specifically challenges of mental health, drug addiction, and poverty. Which end up causing crime, and so the police get asked to fix the symptom rather than the root cause.
- jmilloy 3y ago
  In part I agree, but I want to add that what makes a third place isn't just the kind of place it is (gym, library) but the design and attitude. So these kinds of places may be numerous but that doesn't automatically make them actual third places.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  Same applies to church. It's still there, but people have become more irreligious on average, so they don't even notice they've lost this social outlet / community, especially if the change happened between generations. Then they complain about not knowing their community. Well, the church used to be the center of it. What's the center of it now? Something needs to be, and maybe it's something that can't be provided by government or business.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    The center of it for me are several communal housing places with large communal areas. They're not true replacements, as the people that live there are mostly similar - young professionals-ish without kids - and it isn't especially open to the public, which makes it not an true third place in my mind. Businesses can't do it because they have a necessary profit motive - the bar doesn't especially care if you're buying drinks but they do care that they can't make rent and pay their bartenders and other staff. We don't (or maybe we do) want to just hope a benevolent billionaire or collection of millionaires are going to swoop in and fund their places into existence. They're spending their money on palatial estates where you have to be in the know them to be invited, which makes it not a third place either. No, third places need to be supported by the government - which churches and their tax breaks, and libraries with their funding, are. We have to accept a larger role of government than necessary evil, however, so I don't know if that's possible. The problem with that is Americans aren't well socialized, so third places inevitably get the cops called and the places shut down. We all saw the Black neighbors getting the cops called on them by the scared White neighbors for the crime of having a BBQ and listening to music. The legal regime we live under is a huge part of it. Bars were barely a passable third space but when people don't drink anymore, there are no lounges to meet up and smoke pot in and just hang out at for hours.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      Some of the Dutch coffeeshops -- places which did exist just to smoke pot -- had a pretty firm policy of not bothering other patrons. They were for people to enjoy their selection of cannabis product or mushroom, but not really to socialize.
- lezojeda 3y ago
  Every time I see someone asking where to meet people to date and then another person mentions gym you get a tons of comments bashing them about how the gym is NOT a place to find a date/gf/bf and you should absolutely not bother anyone. I mean, I understand the point, but the same is said sometimes about universities, random extracurricular classes, etc. so... where is people allowed to meet? Then we all scratch our heads wondering about the loneliness/depression epidemic and the atomization of society.
- johnfn 3y ago
  Really? You don't see church diminishing, when church membership is at all-time lows? You don't see cafes reduced from places to have public conversation to places to do quiet, private work?
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    Churches don't seem to be going anywhere though so the option is still there. I also assume church membership varies very much by region.
  - unpopularopp 3y ago
    Christian churches are still there, it's another question that people are going or not. In the UK we also have growing number of mosques each year.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      These aren't really third places, people don't show up to a mosque or church at any time of day to hang out. Maybe a church social, but that's an occasional thing and not the same as a neutral place like a coffee shop.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        As a teen, the church I grew up with had a very active youth community center. There was always some group of teens hanging out there, always events going on practically every night. At the church I'm at now there's something happening at the church at least four days a week if not more often. The playground has kids playing just about every day it's open. There are small groups of people meeting up there constantly.
      - JambalayaJim 3y ago
        Third spaces are anywhere where people can hang out that doesn’t cost money, or doesn’t cost a lot of money. I would say that churches apply actually. And it’s not just the service itself, you have a lot of people hanging out after service in my experience. And then there is always Easter, Christmas, etc when there are snacks and everyone congregates in the basement.
elijaht 3y ago
At least in my experience, these aren’t diminishing (or at minimum, highly available). Every week I - play board games at a brewery - climb at a local climbing gym - play soccer on a public field - (usually) watch sports at a local bar There are plenty of coffee shops and parks near me where I see people meeting.
- sentientslug 3y ago
  It seems you’ve missed the point, all of those places except for the public field have a financial implication.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    The Wikipedia article here includes places with financial implications like bookstores and cafes. I don't see why these have to be excluded, for a long time a nearby pub was my "third place", I knew a lot of the people there and would share life with a lot of them for several years.
  - bitschubser_ 3y ago
    Where I live there are also plenty of free options, I play beach volleyball at a public field, meet at the local lake to swim, meet in the local park to play disc golf, meet at the Pumptrack meet at the skatepark and in the winter go backcountry skiing (ok there I have to pay for public transit)… and everything accessible by bike… If there are no alternatives just talk to the major or so… I know two skateparks and a beachvolleball court currently beeing build just by locals in their freetime with the full support (also financially) of the villages major/council… if there’s no support… move :D (I already did this twice because I don’t like living in such communities)
  - elijaht 3y ago
    Third places don’t need to be free. Wikipedia article cites bars, cafes, coffee shops, gyms.

by hiatus 3y ago

The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite financial transaction.

datameta 3y ago

I think if anything availability increases, but may require more perceived effort (despite lower bar to discovery).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

unpopularopp 3y ago

>The diminishing availability of third places Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores" Not sure I see any of these diminishing. I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.

justinator 3y ago
Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too. Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones. Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite). One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy. And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns. Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).
- michaelrpeskin 3y ago
  Heh, I know exactly which town you're talking about. I host my own little "third space" workout group after the gyms closed for lockdowns, and it's been super successful. If you want to ever stop by let me know.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  The explanation for all of these places closing down seems to be rent. They can't make enough money on being a third place to pay increasing rent to their greedy landlords. So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.
  - justinator 3y ago
    Money is a big factor and again it gets messy. I think the median cost of a house here is north of $800k. Rent is also high. Hard to hack it as a barista, librarian, book clerk, gym trainer, etc.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    > So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places And as with most 'modern' reboots, it's worse than the thing it replaces. Outdoor seating is worse than indoor, plus food trucks price gouge like crazy because they can.
  - justinator 3y ago
    >So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate. Everyone here owns $500 puffies so the drinks will flow (there's also an indoor space that's large). It's the anti-gay, anti-woman religion tie for me that makes me decide not to be a patron (not that I drink all that much...)
- deanCommie 3y ago
  Much of what you listed is a consequence of the Internet, which COVID exacerbated. It's unfortunate but society always changes, and this is one of them. It's OK to accept it and allow it to happen. Except one: > Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with. This is worth fighting for. The internet is not a replacement for a library and more importantly librarians. Not only that but since so much of society is inaccessible without the internet anymore, we need to have public spaces with internet access. In my head we need to consider libraries on the same level of societal importance as police departments, firehalls, and hospitals. They all must be free and universally accessible or there's no point to the centuries of progress humanity has made. [0] [0] obligatory edit - police departments ARE overfunded due to illogical unsubstantiated fear-mongering, and because they are forced to do work that they should not be responsible for, specifically challenges of mental health, drug addiction, and poverty. Which end up causing crime, and so the police get asked to fix the symptom rather than the root cause.
jmilloy 3y ago
In part I agree, but I want to add that what makes a third place isn't just the kind of place it is (gym, library) but the design and attitude. So these kinds of places may be numerous but that doesn't automatically make them actual third places.
dingnuts 3y ago
Same applies to church. It's still there, but people have become more irreligious on average, so they don't even notice they've lost this social outlet / community, especially if the change happened between generations. Then they complain about not knowing their community. Well, the church used to be the center of it. What's the center of it now? Something needs to be, and maybe it's something that can't be provided by government or business.
- fragmede 3y ago
  The center of it for me are several communal housing places with large communal areas. They're not true replacements, as the people that live there are mostly similar - young professionals-ish without kids - and it isn't especially open to the public, which makes it not an true third place in my mind. Businesses can't do it because they have a necessary profit motive - the bar doesn't especially care if you're buying drinks but they do care that they can't make rent and pay their bartenders and other staff. We don't (or maybe we do) want to just hope a benevolent billionaire or collection of millionaires are going to swoop in and fund their places into existence. They're spending their money on palatial estates where you have to be in the know them to be invited, which makes it not a third place either. No, third places need to be supported by the government - which churches and their tax breaks, and libraries with their funding, are. We have to accept a larger role of government than necessary evil, however, so I don't know if that's possible. The problem with that is Americans aren't well socialized, so third places inevitably get the cops called and the places shut down. We all saw the Black neighbors getting the cops called on them by the scared White neighbors for the crime of having a BBQ and listening to music. The legal regime we live under is a huge part of it. Bars were barely a passable third space but when people don't drink anymore, there are no lounges to meet up and smoke pot in and just hang out at for hours.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Some of the Dutch coffeeshops -- places which did exist just to smoke pot -- had a pretty firm policy of not bothering other patrons. They were for people to enjoy their selection of cannabis product or mushroom, but not really to socialize.
lezojeda 3y ago
Every time I see someone asking where to meet people to date and then another person mentions gym you get a tons of comments bashing them about how the gym is NOT a place to find a date/gf/bf and you should absolutely not bother anyone. I mean, I understand the point, but the same is said sometimes about universities, random extracurricular classes, etc. so... where is people allowed to meet? Then we all scratch our heads wondering about the loneliness/depression epidemic and the atomization of society.
johnfn 3y ago
Really? You don't see church diminishing, when church membership is at all-time lows? You don't see cafes reduced from places to have public conversation to places to do quiet, private work?
- barbazoo 3y ago
  Churches don't seem to be going anywhere though so the option is still there. I also assume church membership varies very much by region.
- unpopularopp 3y ago
  Christian churches are still there, it's another question that people are going or not. In the UK we also have growing number of mosques each year.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    These aren't really third places, people don't show up to a mosque or church at any time of day to hang out. Maybe a church social, but that's an occasional thing and not the same as a neutral place like a coffee shop.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      As a teen, the church I grew up with had a very active youth community center. There was always some group of teens hanging out there, always events going on practically every night. At the church I'm at now there's something happening at the church at least four days a week if not more often. The playground has kids playing just about every day it's open. There are small groups of people meeting up there constantly.
    - JambalayaJim 3y ago
      Third spaces are anywhere where people can hang out that doesn’t cost money, or doesn’t cost a lot of money. I would say that churches apply actually. And it’s not just the service itself, you have a lot of people hanging out after service in my experience. And then there is always Easter, Christmas, etc when there are snacks and everyone congregates in the basement.

elijaht 3y ago

At least in my experience, these aren’t diminishing (or at minimum, highly available). Every week I - play board games at a brewery - climb at a local climbing gym - play soccer on a public field - (usually) watch sports at a local bar There are plenty of coffee shops and parks near me where I see people meeting.

sentientslug 3y ago
It seems you’ve missed the point, all of those places except for the public field have a financial implication.
- vel0city 3y ago
  The Wikipedia article here includes places with financial implications like bookstores and cafes. I don't see why these have to be excluded, for a long time a nearby pub was my "third place", I knew a lot of the people there and would share life with a lot of them for several years.
- bitschubser_ 3y ago
  Where I live there are also plenty of free options, I play beach volleyball at a public field, meet at the local lake to swim, meet in the local park to play disc golf, meet at the Pumptrack meet at the skatepark and in the winter go backcountry skiing (ok there I have to pay for public transit)… and everything accessible by bike… If there are no alternatives just talk to the major or so… I know two skateparks and a beachvolleball court currently beeing build just by locals in their freetime with the full support (also financially) of the villages major/council… if there’s no support… move :D (I already did this twice because I don’t like living in such communities)
- elijaht 3y ago
  Third places don’t need to be free. Wikipedia article cites bars, cafes, coffee shops, gyms.