6 ms·

I agree 1000%. The sooner we ditch cars the better. We can do it. Most Americans don't want to do but they don't know what is good for them.

dark-star 3y ago
I wonder what you are supposed to do when you have bigger errands to run. Buying groceries for a family for whole week, get new furniture, going on vacation trip, etc. I mean, yeah, it's great that you have everything necessary within walking distance, but sometimes you simply need to make larger trips... I feel like there should be some kind of middle-ground...
- ZekeSulastin 3y ago
  Part of the implication is that your habits would change with different transportation - for example a fairly common response about groceries is buying them in smaller quantities every few days at the (likely smaller and/or more specialized) grocer convenient to your home or transit stop; renting a truck or cargo van to self move furniture as needed if you can’t get it professionally moved (which probably isn’t a bad idea even if you do primarily use a car!); renting a car for a road trip or being able to use transit to get there instead; that kind of thing.
  - dark-star 3y ago
    The issue is that habits only change so much, because people are reluctant to give up all of the convenience of personal transportation just for the sake of "going car-free". For example, not havig a car is fine until your place of work is 10km out and using public transportation takes 1h whereas driving by car takes 10 minutes. Taking a bike or e-bike works, of course, unless it's raining or snowing or stormy, in which case you really want a fully enclosed (and heated) ride. I'm sure you can find some "but in that case just do X" for all those cases, but the point still stands that all these issues only exist because you ditched the car, even if it's just a small electric one. Designing a city/suburb/community that outright bans cars (by not providing any parking spaces) only works for a very small minority of the population
- jetrink 3y ago
  > Buying groceries for a family for whole week That's the thing: when your grocery store is a short walk away, you don't buy groceries for the whole week. You just duck into the store on the walk home or you walk over at lunch. You buy things for that evening or a few days at most. Having to plan for a whole week of meals seems normal to us, but it's an adaptation to the fact that we live too far from grocery stores. With our large fridges, cabinets, pantries, and chest freezers, we basically turn part of our homes into well-stocked convenience stores so that we can go out as little as possible.
  - slothtrop 3y ago
    Having a grocery store a short distance away is not contingent on eliminating cars. However, modern grocery stores are massive. An increase in clusters that service smaller areas would necessitate smaller stock. We have convenience stores of course, but what do people buy there? Junk. If they're all specialized, then it means more stops and consequently more time invested in daily grocery runs. I don't think this is a common setup for any developed country with 2 income households. Likely the daily-run for groceries occurs in areas where women are homemakers. Is that part of the pitch? There's no way we're going back to that, or daily grocery runs.
    - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
      Every major city I’ve ever been to in the US, Germany, Portugal, Spain, etc. all had smaller grocery stores that sold real produce. It’s very common, not a big deal. And it doesn’t require women to be homemakers, good lord.
      - slothtrop 3y ago
        I'm aware of some of those in major cities. Produce does not constitute the whole of one's daily diet (overwhelmingly). Hence, specialization. Also, having these small produce-oriented grocers does not imply that people are doing daily runs. In my city I only see them in posh, upscale neighborhoods. In some larger metropolises like NY I've seen them also in less gentrified places, but they tend also to be specialty stores.
- Pasorrijer 3y ago
  A lot of your lifestyle changes. You buy groceries more often, but less of them. Or you bring a wagon or those metal carts. Furniture etc. gets delivered. Because everyone gets deliveries, the cost is lower because they have stable demand. With good transit, you take it to the station or rental car if you're doing a road trip.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- alistairSH 3y ago
  You buy groceries more frequently as it's more convenient to stop in on your evening walk or bike ride. Bulky purchases are relatively rare and can be accomplished by delivery service, renting a van, or using a cargo bike (one of which makes groceries and transporting small children easier as well). Vacations - rent a car, take the train, etc. Anyways, few people want to outright ban cars. Look at the Netherlands - most families still have a car, it just doesn't get used daily. It's a convenience instead of a necessity. Maybe they use it to commute, but not to take kids to school or run small errands. The average cost of owning a car in the US is around $10,000/year. Even the ability to cut from 2 cars to 1 car (for a typical family with two working adults) is a MASSIVE economic benefit.
  - plandis 3y ago
    > You buy groceries more frequently as it's more convenient to stop in on your evening walk or bike ride. There are efficiencies both in terms of time and money that come from bulk shopping that you’re not considering. I lived car free for about 5 years in Seattle and it fucking sucked walking to the grocery store every day or two. In the winter it rains frequently so my groceries would always be wet by the time I got home which added even more time to dry everything off.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      A cargo bike would solve that. And I'm not claiming car-free is a panacea. I just want to stop subsidizing car-based infrastructure to the extent that we do. Hell, we still own two cars for convenience (though I walk to work and my wife rides a bike). Though when the next car ages out, we'll probably trade it for an electric cargo bike.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- droidist2 3y ago
  Using an Uber once a week on the way back grocery shopping is still a lot cheaper than owning a car.
- alexlesuper 3y ago
  There's a difference between using a car every day and using a car once in a while.
  - dark-star 3y ago
    as I understood it, culdesac doesn't even provide parking for your car, and parking your car 5 miles away is the same as not having a car at all (at least when it comes to vacation, family visits, larger purchases, etc.)
xyzelement 3y ago
I can be flexible on urban planning topics, but empirically folks with the "they don't know what's good for them, but I do" take on the world should be kept as far away from power and influence as possible - regardless of topic :)
_chu1 3y ago
Come back to me when you've found a way to remove cars from rural Alabama

dark-star 3y ago

I wonder what you are supposed to do when you have bigger errands to run. Buying groceries for a family for whole week, get new furniture, going on vacation trip, etc. I mean, yeah, it's great that you have everything necessary within walking distance, but sometimes you simply need to make larger trips... I feel like there should be some kind of middle-ground...

ZekeSulastin 3y ago
Part of the implication is that your habits would change with different transportation - for example a fairly common response about groceries is buying them in smaller quantities every few days at the (likely smaller and/or more specialized) grocer convenient to your home or transit stop; renting a truck or cargo van to self move furniture as needed if you can’t get it professionally moved (which probably isn’t a bad idea even if you do primarily use a car!); renting a car for a road trip or being able to use transit to get there instead; that kind of thing.
- dark-star 3y ago
  The issue is that habits only change so much, because people are reluctant to give up all of the convenience of personal transportation just for the sake of "going car-free". For example, not havig a car is fine until your place of work is 10km out and using public transportation takes 1h whereas driving by car takes 10 minutes. Taking a bike or e-bike works, of course, unless it's raining or snowing or stormy, in which case you really want a fully enclosed (and heated) ride. I'm sure you can find some "but in that case just do X" for all those cases, but the point still stands that all these issues only exist because you ditched the car, even if it's just a small electric one. Designing a city/suburb/community that outright bans cars (by not providing any parking spaces) only works for a very small minority of the population
jetrink 3y ago
> Buying groceries for a family for whole week That's the thing: when your grocery store is a short walk away, you don't buy groceries for the whole week. You just duck into the store on the walk home or you walk over at lunch. You buy things for that evening or a few days at most. Having to plan for a whole week of meals seems normal to us, but it's an adaptation to the fact that we live too far from grocery stores. With our large fridges, cabinets, pantries, and chest freezers, we basically turn part of our homes into well-stocked convenience stores so that we can go out as little as possible.
- slothtrop 3y ago
  Having a grocery store a short distance away is not contingent on eliminating cars. However, modern grocery stores are massive. An increase in clusters that service smaller areas would necessitate smaller stock. We have convenience stores of course, but what do people buy there? Junk. If they're all specialized, then it means more stops and consequently more time invested in daily grocery runs. I don't think this is a common setup for any developed country with 2 income households. Likely the daily-run for groceries occurs in areas where women are homemakers. Is that part of the pitch? There's no way we're going back to that, or daily grocery runs.
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    Every major city I’ve ever been to in the US, Germany, Portugal, Spain, etc. all had smaller grocery stores that sold real produce. It’s very common, not a big deal. And it doesn’t require women to be homemakers, good lord.
    - slothtrop 3y ago
      I'm aware of some of those in major cities. Produce does not constitute the whole of one's daily diet (overwhelmingly). Hence, specialization. Also, having these small produce-oriented grocers does not imply that people are doing daily runs. In my city I only see them in posh, upscale neighborhoods. In some larger metropolises like NY I've seen them also in less gentrified places, but they tend also to be specialty stores.
Pasorrijer 3y ago
A lot of your lifestyle changes. You buy groceries more often, but less of them. Or you bring a wagon or those metal carts. Furniture etc. gets delivered. Because everyone gets deliveries, the cost is lower because they have stable demand. With good transit, you take it to the station or rental car if you're doing a road trip.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
alistairSH 3y ago
You buy groceries more frequently as it's more convenient to stop in on your evening walk or bike ride. Bulky purchases are relatively rare and can be accomplished by delivery service, renting a van, or using a cargo bike (one of which makes groceries and transporting small children easier as well). Vacations - rent a car, take the train, etc. Anyways, few people want to outright ban cars. Look at the Netherlands - most families still have a car, it just doesn't get used daily. It's a convenience instead of a necessity. Maybe they use it to commute, but not to take kids to school or run small errands. The average cost of owning a car in the US is around $10,000/year. Even the ability to cut from 2 cars to 1 car (for a typical family with two working adults) is a MASSIVE economic benefit.
- plandis 3y ago
  > You buy groceries more frequently as it's more convenient to stop in on your evening walk or bike ride. There are efficiencies both in terms of time and money that come from bulk shopping that you’re not considering. I lived car free for about 5 years in Seattle and it fucking sucked walking to the grocery store every day or two. In the winter it rains frequently so my groceries would always be wet by the time I got home which added even more time to dry everything off.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    A cargo bike would solve that. And I'm not claiming car-free is a panacea. I just want to stop subsidizing car-based infrastructure to the extent that we do. Hell, we still own two cars for convenience (though I walk to work and my wife rides a bike). Though when the next car ages out, we'll probably trade it for an electric cargo bike.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
droidist2 3y ago
Using an Uber once a week on the way back grocery shopping is still a lot cheaper than owning a car.
alexlesuper 3y ago
There's a difference between using a car every day and using a car once in a while.
- dark-star 3y ago
  as I understood it, culdesac doesn't even provide parking for your car, and parking your car 5 miles away is the same as not having a car at all (at least when it comes to vacation, family visits, larger purchases, etc.)

xyzelement 3y ago

I can be flexible on urban planning topics, but empirically folks with the "they don't know what's good for them, but I do" take on the world should be kept as far away from power and influence as possible - regardless of topic :)

_chu1 3y ago

Come back to me when you've found a way to remove cars from rural Alabama