6 ms·

It's using solar energy as input, where's the fossil fuels? This development is exciting and hopefully spreads everywhere. Farmers being able to make their own

It's using solar energy as input, where's the fossil fuels? This development is exciting and hopefully spreads everywhere. Farmers being able to make their own fertilizer (at least on the nitrogen side), is a huge win.

maxbond 3y ago
Without commenting on the merits of this technique, composting is as old as the hills and doesn't necessarily involve fossil fuels.
- sparrowInHand 3y ago
  Its also doesent scale. Medieval farming for industrial societies gave us the atrocities of WW2 including Lebensraum.
  - hedora 3y ago
    What? The Germans pioneered modern fertilizer production in the 1890s-1910s.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    WW2 could not have happened without Haber ammonia .. for explosives.
  - laurencerowe 3y ago
    The Industrial Revolution couldn’t have happened without the Agricultural Revolution that preceded and accompanied it, freeing up workers for industry. In medieval times most of the population were farmers by necessity. In the UK, output per acre tripled and the proportion of the population in farming went from 60% to 20% in 1840. And the UK was still almost entirely self sufficient at this time, food imports only became substantial in the late 1800s. Similar changes happened across Europe, though timing varied by country with the spread of industrialisation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolut...
  - maxbond 3y ago
    The biosphere seemed to scale quite a bit before we invented synthetic fertilizers. I don't think it's so much a problem of composting not scaling as much as our supply chains being wasteful and linear. Again, not commenting on the merits of this technology, I just think it's not correct to say that composting can't scale.
- pstuart 3y ago
  Composting has value too -- I'm a fan of permaculture. But as noted elsewhere, this scales well and becomes one tool of many.
- hedora 3y ago
  Composting is to atmospheric nitrogen fixing (this type of process) as recycling is to mining. Before people could pull nitrogen out of the atmosphere, wars were fought over guano deposits, etc. At this point, the majority of nitrogen in human biomass comes from the Haber-Bosch process. (I’m not arguing against composting, to be clear!)
mym1990 3y ago
Farmers have been able to do this for a very long time, but the process is very inefficient and messy when done at scale. Certainly these are good strides forward though!
walleeee 3y ago
Solar panels cannot currently be manufactured, distributed or repaired at any serious scale without fossil fuels.
- throwaway5752 3y ago
  While that is true, it is misleading. If you can use a fixed quantity of fossil fuels to generate many decades of carbon free energy, the change to the overall lifecycle carbon requirements are very different. Just like in algorithms, making it an O(1) rather than O(n) solution, even with a large constant factor, can make an enormous difference over time.
  - walleeee 3y ago
    Your point is also true. I would contest the notion that mine is misleading, given that the parent asks, "where are the fossil fuels?"
    - throwaway5752 3y ago
      Fair point! I don't think transportation, manufacture, or extraction ultimately require fossil fuels. Most of the energy inputs are fungible between fossil fuel or renewable. I agree with you right now but that is not a permanent role for fossil fuels. I think input processing (redox) and plastics will be the most persistent. But overall non haber-bosch ammonia is going to reduce co2 emissions and should be celebrated.
      - walleeee 3y ago
        While in principle I agree fossil fuels aren't required, in practice it is much more difficult to convert transportation, manufacture and extraction than most realize Also suspect modern agriculture's conviction that the crop is an empty vessel requiring synthetic fertilizer is long overdue for reconsideration. Organic ag can be as productive as industrial ag, at far less energy/materials cost, but it will require much more human effort. While this is a very serious tradeoff to make I would argue it is worthwhile in the long run.

maxbond 3y ago

Without commenting on the merits of this technique, composting is as old as the hills and doesn't necessarily involve fossil fuels.

sparrowInHand 3y ago
Its also doesent scale. Medieval farming for industrial societies gave us the atrocities of WW2 including Lebensraum.
- hedora 3y ago
  What? The Germans pioneered modern fertilizer production in the 1890s-1910s.
- pjc50 3y ago
  WW2 could not have happened without Haber ammonia .. for explosives.
- laurencerowe 3y ago
  The Industrial Revolution couldn’t have happened without the Agricultural Revolution that preceded and accompanied it, freeing up workers for industry. In medieval times most of the population were farmers by necessity. In the UK, output per acre tripled and the proportion of the population in farming went from 60% to 20% in 1840. And the UK was still almost entirely self sufficient at this time, food imports only became substantial in the late 1800s. Similar changes happened across Europe, though timing varied by country with the spread of industrialisation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolut...
- maxbond 3y ago
  The biosphere seemed to scale quite a bit before we invented synthetic fertilizers. I don't think it's so much a problem of composting not scaling as much as our supply chains being wasteful and linear. Again, not commenting on the merits of this technology, I just think it's not correct to say that composting can't scale.
pstuart 3y ago
Composting has value too -- I'm a fan of permaculture. But as noted elsewhere, this scales well and becomes one tool of many.
hedora 3y ago
Composting is to atmospheric nitrogen fixing (this type of process) as recycling is to mining. Before people could pull nitrogen out of the atmosphere, wars were fought over guano deposits, etc. At this point, the majority of nitrogen in human biomass comes from the Haber-Bosch process. (I’m not arguing against composting, to be clear!)

mym1990 3y ago

Farmers have been able to do this for a very long time, but the process is very inefficient and messy when done at scale. Certainly these are good strides forward though!

walleeee 3y ago

Solar panels cannot currently be manufactured, distributed or repaired at any serious scale without fossil fuels.

throwaway5752 3y ago
While that is true, it is misleading. If you can use a fixed quantity of fossil fuels to generate many decades of carbon free energy, the change to the overall lifecycle carbon requirements are very different. Just like in algorithms, making it an O(1) rather than O(n) solution, even with a large constant factor, can make an enormous difference over time.
- walleeee 3y ago
  Your point is also true. I would contest the notion that mine is misleading, given that the parent asks, "where are the fossil fuels?"
  - throwaway5752 3y ago
    Fair point! I don't think transportation, manufacture, or extraction ultimately require fossil fuels. Most of the energy inputs are fungible between fossil fuel or renewable. I agree with you right now but that is not a permanent role for fossil fuels. I think input processing (redox) and plastics will be the most persistent. But overall non haber-bosch ammonia is going to reduce co2 emissions and should be celebrated.
    - walleeee 3y ago
      While in principle I agree fossil fuels aren't required, in practice it is much more difficult to convert transportation, manufacture and extraction than most realize Also suspect modern agriculture's conviction that the crop is an empty vessel requiring synthetic fertilizer is long overdue for reconsideration. Organic ag can be as productive as industrial ag, at far less energy/materials cost, but it will require much more human effort. While this is a very serious tradeoff to make I would argue it is worthwhile in the long run.