11 ms·

I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have wor

I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I suspect similar moves will be applied elsewhere here in Europe) to young people without kids, to immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) and to the "pied-a-terres" of the few upper-middle class people who will afford to have EVs (who will also own property in the suburbs, for that matter).

f6v 3y ago
How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.
- paganel 3y ago
  > How does Western life experience necessitate a car? First of all, taking your kids by car to a much better school. Because we sure as hell cannot afford to own property close to those better schools.
  - johngalt_ 3y ago
    Have you ever heard of school bus?
    - paganel 3y ago
      Yeah, saw them in American movies. I've also heard about the "busing kids in" policy that didn't work, also from the States. Try to put your 10-year old kid on public transport half-away across the city in any big European city, especially after the sun is out in the winter.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?
        hef19898 3y ago
        That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding). Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simply not a thing I know. I do hear a ton of that from the US so.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        In the UK people move into catchment areas for better schools. How did you measure this equivalent quality of the schools you've assessed?
        hef19898 3y ago
        By doing a very detailed due dilligence of schools in Bavaria, the rest of Germany, Austria, France and Sweden, using the most advanced data science methodologies, including all available for money social studies as summarized by Chat-GPT (which reminds to run that again now that version 4 is out) and having the results put into a picture drawn by Dall-E and vetted by the social science PhD I met as my taxi driver (I don't take Ubers).
        paganel 3y ago
    - vel0city 3y ago
      A lot private schools in the US don't offer transportation services. Many school districts in the US won't do transportation if you're trying to go to any school that you're not originally zoned for. So if you want to send your kids to a nicer private school or if the school you're zoned for is trash, you're in charge of getting them to school.
  - JoachimS 3y ago
    You have obviously not been to Stockholm during morning rush. Stockholm have an extensive subway, as well as buses. Or just using the (often quite wide) sidewalks to walk. The amount of kids moving around (themselves) to get to their schools is almost overwhelming. Oh, and the best schools are really in the downtown area. Which is why children, kids, teenagers use the public transport from all around the metro area by themselves to get to the schools. And since you comment further below about winter - yes, of course the kids move around like this in the winter too.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Yeah, seeing 7 year olds taking the subway with their parents, just to change two stations later like any other commuter, is always a fun and cool thing to see.
      - stuaxo 3y ago
        I take my 6 year old on the train all the time a few stops living in London and have since she was much smaller whats wrong with kids on trains (small children are keen on trains and buses btw).
        hef19898 3y ago
        Back the dqy, my parenrs had 1 hour commutes on foot through some woods to catch a bus for another hour to go to school, and back. Nobody cared, it was normal. Now it is normal for kids to take busses and trains themselves to go to school in cities. Times change.
  - jmrm 3y ago
    Most kids know how to use the public transportation, and being ouside is safe enough to let your kids outside without needing to be with them. Also, some European countries do a really high effort to make their public schools so good that rich people study in the public centres.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > Most kids know how to use the public transportation Not kids from age 3-10, and from then on really just a simple one bus or tram route. There's no point pretending this isn't a big issue. You might say it's worth those people leaving the city to make it happen, but saying it's not life-changing for them is doing them a massive disservice.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        I can assure you that somewhere around the 6-7 year mark, it is completely normal for kids to take public transport to go to school. It is where I live, it is in Munich (always fun to end up in the school rush hour sharing the subway with all those little ones riding the train like a pro). It is simply normal for those and nothing even remotely special or weird.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        Are you talking about unaccompanied kids?
        hef19898 3y ago
        Of course, that was the topic we discussed right?
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        It is. I'm in Oxford, UK, where there's lots of public transport, but I've never seen a 6-year-old on a bus solo.
  - outwit 3y ago
    What are the much better schools in the center of Stockholm that you're thinking of? I think the level of education is really good in most Swedish schools, so if you want one that's farther away for reasons... electric car or public transport
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    A benefit of living in a reasonably dense city is there are like 10 schools within walking distance of me.
- DrThunder 3y ago
  Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spending my $80k+ of money on it.
  - Luc 3y ago
    The people placing power in the hands of representatives through democratic elections, choosing not to have the biggest gas guzzling trucks on their inner city streets.
    - DrThunder 3y ago
      That's not true at all but nice try. (see EV sales) Creating excuses for totalitarianism is fun.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    This feels like a weird thing to have to explain to someone, but like, the whole purpose of government and regulations is to provide a framework to peacefully resolve conflicts when one person's decisions affect another person. It's kind of how civilization works, you know? Your decision to drive a battletank on public roads affects more than just yourself.
    - DrThunder 3y ago
      "resolve conflicts when one person's decisions affect another person" Your silly little metaphor would make sense if it was actually about how it "affected others". It's clearly not for the reasons I explained above.
  - flir 3y ago
    Same argument for guns, right? Or a less baity example, antibiotics.
  - 3y ago
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
V__ 3y ago
> having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) This is just not accurate.
andyjohnson0 3y ago
Do you actually have any evidence that this will happen? Or is this just an evidence-free rant?
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  Unfortunately, in my experience, to people who are concerned about “immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)”, this is what counts as a logical complaint.
- paganel 3y ago
  I'm already seeing that flight to the suburbs happening here in Bucharest, yes. And, yes, the most recent census has confirmed that flight to the suburbs, that is for your "non-evidence rant" part of your comment.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    I wasn't aware Bucharest is in Sweden, you learn something new every day!
- wwtrv 3y ago
  It increases the cost of living in those areas, so what they are saying makes sense just because of that.
reisse 3y ago
> not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.
- wwtrv 3y ago
  > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe And/or having a car is too expensive for some so people make do..
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are Glad you both agree!
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.
  - visres 3y ago
    Interesting, can you elaborate? What part of the city or surrounds do you find this to be true? I've found the reliability and mix of routes via tunnelbana, pendeltåg, trams, buses, and boats to be really good and know many Stockholmers without cars. Of course, road trips and moving large items become more of a hassle without a car, but can often be worked around with rentals/delivery srevices. Further, the more remote you get, the density of public transport options do become sparse, if an option at all. But within the radius of the tunnelbana, living without a car is very achievable. [edit: saw your other comment about further out areas, late night journeys and MTR, which are fair points. Cars are super convenient in many ways, no argument there.]
  - martindbp 3y ago
poniko 3y ago
Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.
- paganel 3y ago
  > Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.
  - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
    Nobody takes the car to somewhere in downtown Stockholm to save money. That's always one of the most expensive options.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    So, Stockholm is a modern vity, O hope we can agree on that. Also, Sweden, and thus Stockholm, is in the West, making Stockholm a modern, western city. And it seems people in Stockholm are not living in abysmal conditions. Meaning everyone living in Stockholm right now is living a "modern, western lifestyle", by definition. It is, of course, an urban one, but there are more ways than one living ypur life. And nobody is trying to take that away from you or anyone else.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city. yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution. (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)
  - gruturo 3y ago
threemux 3y ago
I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here. You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to the country to relax? You're limited to the places you can get by transit. Kid wants to do something that isn't near a transit stop? Too bad. Visiting relatives outside the city? Better hope you can get a ride from the nearest transit stop. The list goes on and on. Being able to walk places is desirable, but it's best when you can walk/bike and drive a car if you need to.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
- geraneum 3y ago
  “You will drink nothing behind the wheel until we approve it.” “You will wear this belt because we say so. You have no freedom.” If _they_ don’t want you to go somewhere, your car surely won’t take you there.
paddim8 3y ago
You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.
rsynnott 3y ago
> not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) Wait, what's this "Western-life experience" I'm missing out on by not having a car? Having lived in Western Europe all my life, I seem to have missed the memo about this.

f6v 3y ago

How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.

paganel 3y ago
> How does Western life experience necessitate a car? First of all, taking your kids by car to a much better school. Because we sure as hell cannot afford to own property close to those better schools.
- johngalt_ 3y ago
  Have you ever heard of school bus?
  - paganel 3y ago
    Yeah, saw them in American movies. I've also heard about the "busing kids in" policy that didn't work, also from the States. Try to put your 10-year old kid on public transport half-away across the city in any big European city, especially after the sun is out in the winter.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?
        hef19898 3y ago
        That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding). Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simply not a thing I know. I do hear a ton of that from the US so.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        In the UK people move into catchment areas for better schools. How did you measure this equivalent quality of the schools you've assessed?
        hef19898 3y ago
        By doing a very detailed due dilligence of schools in Bavaria, the rest of Germany, Austria, France and Sweden, using the most advanced data science methodologies, including all available for money social studies as summarized by Chat-GPT (which reminds to run that again now that version 4 is out) and having the results put into a picture drawn by Dall-E and vetted by the social science PhD I met as my taxi driver (I don't take Ubers).
        paganel 3y ago
  - vel0city 3y ago
    A lot private schools in the US don't offer transportation services. Many school districts in the US won't do transportation if you're trying to go to any school that you're not originally zoned for. So if you want to send your kids to a nicer private school or if the school you're zoned for is trash, you're in charge of getting them to school.
- JoachimS 3y ago
  You have obviously not been to Stockholm during morning rush. Stockholm have an extensive subway, as well as buses. Or just using the (often quite wide) sidewalks to walk. The amount of kids moving around (themselves) to get to their schools is almost overwhelming. Oh, and the best schools are really in the downtown area. Which is why children, kids, teenagers use the public transport from all around the metro area by themselves to get to the schools. And since you comment further below about winter - yes, of course the kids move around like this in the winter too.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Yeah, seeing 7 year olds taking the subway with their parents, just to change two stations later like any other commuter, is always a fun and cool thing to see.
    - stuaxo 3y ago
      I take my 6 year old on the train all the time a few stops living in London and have since she was much smaller whats wrong with kids on trains (small children are keen on trains and buses btw).
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Back the dqy, my parenrs had 1 hour commutes on foot through some woods to catch a bus for another hour to go to school, and back. Nobody cared, it was normal. Now it is normal for kids to take busses and trains themselves to go to school in cities. Times change.
- jmrm 3y ago
  Most kids know how to use the public transportation, and being ouside is safe enough to let your kids outside without needing to be with them. Also, some European countries do a really high effort to make their public schools so good that rich people study in the public centres.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Most kids know how to use the public transportation Not kids from age 3-10, and from then on really just a simple one bus or tram route. There's no point pretending this isn't a big issue. You might say it's worth those people leaving the city to make it happen, but saying it's not life-changing for them is doing them a massive disservice.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      I can assure you that somewhere around the 6-7 year mark, it is completely normal for kids to take public transport to go to school. It is where I live, it is in Munich (always fun to end up in the school rush hour sharing the subway with all those little ones riding the train like a pro). It is simply normal for those and nothing even remotely special or weird.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Are you talking about unaccompanied kids?
        hef19898 3y ago
        Of course, that was the topic we discussed right?
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        It is. I'm in Oxford, UK, where there's lots of public transport, but I've never seen a 6-year-old on a bus solo.
- outwit 3y ago
  What are the much better schools in the center of Stockholm that you're thinking of? I think the level of education is really good in most Swedish schools, so if you want one that's farther away for reasons... electric car or public transport
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  A benefit of living in a reasonably dense city is there are like 10 schools within walking distance of me.
DrThunder 3y ago
Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spending my $80k+ of money on it.
- Luc 3y ago
  The people placing power in the hands of representatives through democratic elections, choosing not to have the biggest gas guzzling trucks on their inner city streets.
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    That's not true at all but nice try. (see EV sales) Creating excuses for totalitarianism is fun.
- coldpie 3y ago
  This feels like a weird thing to have to explain to someone, but like, the whole purpose of government and regulations is to provide a framework to peacefully resolve conflicts when one person's decisions affect another person. It's kind of how civilization works, you know? Your decision to drive a battletank on public roads affects more than just yourself.
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    "resolve conflicts when one person's decisions affect another person" Your silly little metaphor would make sense if it was actually about how it "affected others". It's clearly not for the reasons I explained above.
- flir 3y ago
  Same argument for guns, right? Or a less baity example, antibiotics.
- 3y ago
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]

V__ 3y ago

> having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) This is just not accurate.

andyjohnson0 3y ago

Do you actually have any evidence that this will happen? Or is this just an evidence-free rant?

polygamous_bat 3y ago
Unfortunately, in my experience, to people who are concerned about “immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)”, this is what counts as a logical complaint.
paganel 3y ago
I'm already seeing that flight to the suburbs happening here in Bucharest, yes. And, yes, the most recent census has confirmed that flight to the suburbs, that is for your "non-evidence rant" part of your comment.
- hef19898 3y ago
  I wasn't aware Bucharest is in Sweden, you learn something new every day!
wwtrv 3y ago
It increases the cost of living in those areas, so what they are saying makes sense just because of that.

reisse 3y ago

> not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.

wwtrv 3y ago
> It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe And/or having a car is too expensive for some so people make do..
robertlagrant 3y ago
> you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are Glad you both agree!
Nullabillity 3y ago
> It's totally OK to live in Stockholm Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.
- visres 3y ago
  Interesting, can you elaborate? What part of the city or surrounds do you find this to be true? I've found the reliability and mix of routes via tunnelbana, pendeltåg, trams, buses, and boats to be really good and know many Stockholmers without cars. Of course, road trips and moving large items become more of a hassle without a car, but can often be worked around with rentals/delivery srevices. Further, the more remote you get, the density of public transport options do become sparse, if an option at all. But within the radius of the tunnelbana, living without a car is very achievable. [edit: saw your other comment about further out areas, late night journeys and MTR, which are fair points. Cars are super convenient in many ways, no argument there.]
- martindbp 3y ago

poniko 3y ago

Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.

paganel 3y ago
> Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.
- wasmitnetzen 3y ago
  Nobody takes the car to somewhere in downtown Stockholm to save money. That's always one of the most expensive options.
- hef19898 3y ago
  So, Stockholm is a modern vity, O hope we can agree on that. Also, Sweden, and thus Stockholm, is in the West, making Stockholm a modern, western city. And it seems people in Stockholm are not living in abysmal conditions. Meaning everyone living in Stockholm right now is living a "modern, western lifestyle", by definition. It is, of course, an urban one, but there are more ways than one living ypur life. And nobody is trying to take that away from you or anyone else.
qwytw 3y ago
> "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city. yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution. (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)
- gruturo 3y ago

threemux 3y ago

I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here. You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to the country to relax? You're limited to the places you can get by transit. Kid wants to do something that isn't near a transit stop? Too bad. Visiting relatives outside the city? Better hope you can get a ride from the nearest transit stop. The list goes on and on. Being able to walk places is desirable, but it's best when you can walk/bike and drive a car if you need to.

londons_explore 3y ago
In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
geraneum 3y ago
“You will drink nothing behind the wheel until we approve it.” “You will wear this belt because we say so. You have no freedom.” If _they_ don’t want you to go somewhere, your car surely won’t take you there.

paddim8 3y ago

You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.

rsynnott 3y ago

> not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) Wait, what's this "Western-life experience" I'm missing out on by not having a car? Having lived in Western Europe all my life, I seem to have missed the memo about this.