14 ms·

Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

145 points by dsnr 3y ago

teddyh 3y ago
Another article in English: <https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-city-centre https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and...> Maps here: <https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-dieseldrivna-bilar-forbjuds-i-centrala-stockholm--an4nkd https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese...> and here: <https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-stockholms-innerstad/ https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-...>. Note that the area is comparatively tiny; 180 000m² according to some articles, closer to 200 000m² according to my measurements – but in any case smaller than 50 acres. OpenStreetMap link to the same area as the map, so you can zoom out and see the scales involved: <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/59.33461/18.06944 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/59.33461/18.06944>
- paganel 3y ago
  I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I suspect similar moves will be applied elsewhere here in Europe) to young people without kids, to immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) and to the "pied-a-terres" of the few upper-middle class people who will afford to have EVs (who will also own property in the suburbs, for that matter).
  - f6v 3y ago
    How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.
    - paganel 3y ago
      > How does Western life experience necessitate a car? First of all, taking your kids by car to a much better school. Because we sure as hell cannot afford to own property close to those better schools.
      - johngalt_ 3y ago
        Have you ever heard of school bus?
        paganel 3y ago
        Yeah, saw them in American movies. I've also heard about the "busing kids in" policy that didn't work, also from the States. Try to put your 10-year old kid on public transport half-away across the city in any big European city, especially after the sun is out in the winter.
        hef19898 3y ago
        You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?
        hef19898 3y ago
        That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding). Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simply not a thing I know. I do hear a ton of that from the US so.
  - V__ 3y ago
    > having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) This is just not accurate.
  - andyjohnson0 3y ago
    Do you actually have any evidence that this will happen? Or is this just an evidence-free rant?
    - polygamous_bat 3y ago
      Unfortunately, in my experience, to people who are concerned about “immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)”, this is what counts as a logical complaint.
    - paganel 3y ago
      I'm already seeing that flight to the suburbs happening here in Bucharest, yes. And, yes, the most recent census has confirmed that flight to the suburbs, that is for your "non-evidence rant" part of your comment.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        I wasn't aware Bucharest is in Sweden, you learn something new every day!
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      It increases the cost of living in those areas, so what they are saying makes sense just because of that.
  - reisse 3y ago
    > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe And/or having a car is too expensive for some so people make do..
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are Glad you both agree!
    - Nullabillity 3y ago
      > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.
      - visres 3y ago
        Interesting, can you elaborate? What part of the city or surrounds do you find this to be true? I've found the reliability and mix of routes via tunnelbana, pendeltåg, trams, buses, and boats to be really good and know many Stockholmers without cars. Of course, road trips and moving large items become more of a hassle without a car, but can often be worked around with rentals/delivery srevices. Further, the more remote you get, the density of public transport options do become sparse, if an option at all. But within the radius of the tunnelbana, living without a car is very achievable. [edit: saw your other comment about further out areas, late night journeys and MTR, which are fair points. Cars are super convenient in many ways, no argument there.]
      - martindbp 3y ago
  - poniko 3y ago
    Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.
    - paganel 3y ago
      > Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.
      - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
        Nobody takes the car to somewhere in downtown Stockholm to save money. That's always one of the most expensive options.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        So, Stockholm is a modern vity, O hope we can agree on that. Also, Sweden, and thus Stockholm, is in the West, making Stockholm a modern, western city. And it seems people in Stockholm are not living in abysmal conditions. Meaning everyone living in Stockholm right now is living a "modern, western lifestyle", by definition. It is, of course, an urban one, but there are more ways than one living ypur life. And nobody is trying to take that away from you or anyone else.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city. yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution. (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)
      - gruturo 3y ago
  - threemux 3y ago
    I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here. You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to the country to relax? You're limited to the places you can get by transit. Kid wants to do something that isn't near a transit stop? Too bad. Visiting relatives outside the city? Better hope you can get a ride from the nearest transit stop. The list goes on and on. Being able to walk places is desirable, but it's best when you can walk/bike and drive a car if you need to.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
    - geraneum 3y ago
      “You will drink nothing behind the wheel until we approve it.” “You will wear this belt because we say so. You have no freedom.” If _they_ don’t want you to go somewhere, your car surely won’t take you there.
  - paddim8 3y ago
    You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) Wait, what's this "Western-life experience" I'm missing out on by not having a car? Having lived in Western Europe all my life, I seem to have missed the memo about this.
- yobbo 3y ago
  Also; it is not a residential area. There are mostly office buildings and shopping centers there. It will require delivery trucks to be at least hybrids.
- scatters 3y ago
  OpenStreetMap has the zone as a map feature: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127782964 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127782964
ugjka 3y ago
With the quality of life there, they can afford such measures
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Yep, considering they have good public transport especially in center, this measure is logical. Imo they should ban any car except service/delivery/etc in center but I guess small steps are better than none
Nullabillity 3y ago
Maybe focus on building out a competent public transport system first, rather than halving the capacity of the commuter rail. Or fix the several islands (both literal and metaphorical) that are effectively cut off from the main system. It's like these people live in a parallel reality where nobody needs to get in our out of the inner city.
- Etheryte 3y ago
  In my experience, the public transport system in Stockholm is pretty fine, is there a specific qualm you have with it? You don't have to be able to drive your car directly into the heart of the city.
  - martindbp 3y ago
    "Pretty fine"? More like world class considering it's a city of just ~2m.
  - Zee38484 3y ago
    [flagged]
- paddim8 3y ago
  Stockholm has great public transport?
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    Not at all. Anywhere further out like Nacka or Täby are nightmares to get to. Or if neither start nor destination is in the inner city. Or if it's after ~1AM. Or if service in your area is havily reduced (or shut down entirely!) because MTR can't be bothered to respect their drivers. Or if you're in an Arriva area, period. Maybe it looks brilliant if you're used to some US shithole. But even at its best it can't hold a candle to somewhere like the Copenhagen metro. And even that pales when compared to the trusty car that will take you from anywhere, to anywhere, whenever you want. Source: lived in Stockholm for 8 years so far, half of which were carless.
- 3y ago
boxed 3y ago
It's a tiny part of the center of Stockholm. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-dieseldrivna-bilar-forbjuds-i-centrala-stockholm--an4nkd https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... has a map. Roughly 4x4 blocks.
- megabless123 3y ago
  nice, sounds like a great start that is better than 0x0 blocks
  - boxed 3y ago
    Well.. There are lots of roads that closed totally for cars over the years, and quite a few after COVID.
- hyperman1 3y ago
  It can grow. A few cities started car-free or car polution limiting zones. Every year,the zone grows and the rules get stricter. This way makes it safe to feel the waters, tweak public transports, get people's reaction, without killing it in the cradle.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Indeed! https://www.citiesforum.org/news/superblock-superilla-barcelona-a-city-redefined/ https://www.citiesforum.org/news/superblock-superilla-barcel... https://www.barcelona.cat/pla-superilla-barcelona/en https://www.barcelona.cat/pla-superilla-barcelona/en https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/4/9/18273894/barcelona-urban-planning-superblocks-poblenou https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/4/9/18273894... (Barcelona superblocks)
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    It's pretty expensive for the city to do that. Tons of signage needs to be removed and replaced with every expansion, and if you choose automated enforcement you need to install lots of new cameras and posts too. Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Eg. Take the cars age, add the current year, subtract the cars rated mpg, add 10 if it's a diesel. If the result is 2050 or more, there is a fine of $20/day if you drive it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jeffbee 3y ago
Interesting that this bans PHEVs, because that is a substantial share of the EVs sold in Sweden, being about a third of EV sales and a fifth of total car sales recently. It seems like this will help kill the category.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Can't speak to Sweden, but it is a shame what has happened with the PHEV category generally. I drive a Volt and it's a fantastic car in that it's really more like "electric car that also has a gas engine" vs the bulk of PHEVs on the market which are really "hybrid that can be plugged in to get a few miles of somewhat-gas free driving." The latter seem to have been designed and sold mainly to skirt some regulations and take advantage of subsidies; along with a sometimes-hefty price increase. We also own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and while it's a fine SUV and family mover, it uses the ICE constantly, while I drive my Volt for months without ever using the combustion engine (to the point where it has to run a "maintenance cycle" to stop the gas from going bad). Meanwhile the Volt was killed off by GM. It's a shame because I feel like consumers would have responded more positively to electrification if more cars like this had been rolled out and the engineering (and marketing and sales) had been taken more seriously on them.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    Around here the Clarity PHEV are seen daily (I own one). I don't know if that was because of subsidies/incentives or what. In my use case the ~35 mile EV range is perfect and like you I experience the engine running only when the computer commands maintenance cycles, or if I take a long trip and it flips into HV mode. Considering the embodied energy of a full EV especially in the year that I bought the Clarity, I still think it was the right choice at the time.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Yeah the Clarity was only really produced in volume as a compliance car in states that mandated it, though. It never really showed up around here (Ontario) for example. Whereas GM rolled out the Volt across all their dealerships everywhere -- though obviously sales only really happened in places with incentives. Technically on paper the Clarity PHEV looks on par with the Volt; but Honda didn't really want to sell it ... and GM killed the Volt. So that category of vehicle (range assisted EV instead of "PHEV") seems DOA.
CalRobert 3y ago
It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fantastic_ to be able to just bike.... everywhere. Or get a train. or bus. Or, sometimes, use a car-share vehicle. It's absolute freedom. And I'm a hell of a lot less worried about my kids being killed by drivers - the leading cause of dead kids in the US. Even here there's too many Dodge Rams though. And large SUV's - especially electric ones - are increasingly popular.
- wwtrv 3y ago
  Yet the overwhelming majority of people in the Netherlands still uses cars as their primary method of transport: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Travel_distance_per_person_per_day_by_main_travel_mode_for_urban_mobility_on_all_days_(%25)_v3.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... of course if you moved there from the USA (which I assume you did?) the car situation there is not that much better than other European countries.
  - InitialLastName 3y ago
    That's not how I interpret that chart. The title says "Travel Distance per person day by main travel mode for urban mobility on all days". That is ambiguous, but suggests that the numbers are actually the share of the travel distance for peoples' main mode, meaning that people who need to travel further in a day tend to have cars, to an overwhelming extent. That is still a coherent situation in a world where most people don't use cars because their daily travel needs only involve short distances (e.g. because they live in an area where all of their needs are met within a short range).
    - yourusername 3y ago
      Even if you go by number of trips and then even if you limit yourself to just trips 3.7 to 7.5 km cars are still are 50% more common than bikes. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/figures/detail/84708ENG https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/figures/detail/84708ENG
pera 3y ago
I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.
- qwytw 3y ago
  EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs. Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more. Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy... Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers. However switching to EVs is not a good longterm solution. e.g. there won't be any incentives for massively increasing investment into public transport because everyone can just drive a "clean" EV. *I'm not saying that brake and tire wear is that much higher for EVs, rather that if we only look at ICE vehicles tires/breaks are as big a source of PM 2.5 as the engine itself.
  - oittaa 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - elric 3y ago
    That's probably true if you only look at the cars themselves, but don't forget that getting petrol in cars requires a huge petrochemical industry, from oil wells to refineries, pipelines and pumping stations. Each of those steps also emits all kinds of crap. The same is true for electricity from many sources, but overall I suspect EVs come out somewhat better than petrol cars. Of course, cars are generally too big, too heavy, and too fast. Addressing those issues would benefit everyone, regardless of fuel source.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      Yeah, my argument is mainly about pollution in inner cities/densely populated areas (where just switching to EV certainly does not go far enough)
DrThunder 3y ago
Sounds like they need the London treatment.
hkon 3y ago
[flagged]
ecmascript 3y ago
As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but that city is very hostile against car traffic in general (which is stupid in my opinion). Finding a parking space in the outskirts of the city is very hard and I have searched for a spot in like an hour when visiting my family. They build a lot of housing but no parking spaces for residents. Sometimes if you're lucky they'll build like 1 parking space per 20 residents when in reality 19 of these residents have a car. I know personally some areas close to my mother where they have taken areas for parking and built housing there making the actual parking spaces go negative. Fine if you want to get rid of petrol/diesel but there are alternatives and you don't have to make things shitty for people with electric cars as well. I think people will start moving from Stockholm because who wants to live in a city where housing is 3-4 times the national avg, people being shot all the time and even blown up when in bed in your own home. Then the politicians responsible cares more about making it more expensive for you to go to work which all seems more meaningless since you pay so much in taxes that goes to immigration and people not contributing to society. Productive will move to the country side where they can safely drive to work and work less because working hard is just not worth it in Sweden.
- thebiss 3y ago
  The article indicates there will be some exceptions: > While it is primarily intended to allow for only fully electric cars, bigger vans with plug-in hybrid engines will also be allowed, and exceptions will be made for ambulances and police cars, as well as cars in which the driver or passenger has a documented disability
  - ecmascript 3y ago
    So I guess the imported soy lattes of those who made the rule changes are going to have a price increase due to delivery companies that need to upgrade their fleet. ;D
morelisp 3y ago
However small it is, it seems far preferable to Berlin's approach of building a highway down the middle while simultaneously refusing to even consider the 2035 target.
- jansan 3y ago
  Why? Cars are the most convenient way of transportation.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    No.
verisimi 3y ago
The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for individuals to have less control over their lives - shifting that control to the governance structure. Did anyone discuss the transfer of control, agree to it, vote on it? It's quite amazing to me that people are going to lose freedom of movement, will pay more etc and be happy to do so. Turkeys voting for Christmas.
- gruturo 3y ago
  You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    The huge oil reserves and tiny population make it much easier to give everyone a good quality of life... It also masks the effects of inefficient decisionmaking.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Only Norway has oil so, Denmark Sweden and Finland much less so.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        https://geology.com/usgs/oil-shale/estonia-sweden-oil-shale.shtml https://geology.com/usgs/oil-shale/estonia-sweden-oil-shale....
        hef19898 3y ago
        And just how much money are tzey making of that? Oil nation money?
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]
throwaw33333434 3y ago
I wonder why when Stockholm did it, it made the news, but, say Kraków did it we don't see it. City pays for PR?
- stuaxo 3y ago
  Probably just sends a press release.
- Tade0 3y ago
  Does it matter? Kraków is doing its own thing without much fanfare and I think it's great. I went there a few weeks ago for the first time in 6 years or so and could easily identify positive changes that make living there more pleasant. Also while driving was a little slow (as usual), I had no problem finding (paid) parking close to the old town.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  There's probably a lot of Swedes here from the Reddit exodus.
- mikkelam 3y ago
  Are you talking about the Low Emission Zone? That seems to be a reduction of high emission cars and not really a total ban as described in the article.
- belorn 3y ago
  Kraków is a low emission zone, not a zero emission zone which is what Stockholm is doing. It not the first EU initiative for ZEZ, but it seems more often that ZEZ get implemented by making it a car-free area. To add more context: "The first phase of the Krakow LEZ will restrict vehicles with EU exhaust emission standards Euro 1 petrol and Euro 2 diesel vehicles, before tightening restrictions further in 2026. After then, only cars with a minimum norm Euro 3 for petrol and Euro 5 for diesel will be allowed in the city (20% of the current fleet will be affected). "
matthewfelgate 3y ago
How are you going to enforce a plan on petrol and diesel cars in certain areas?
torcete 3y ago
It will probably make the city quieter and cleaner, but wouldn't make it also exclusive for people that can afford an electric car?
- stuaxo 3y ago
  It's four blocks, you could drive to where you can park and then walk.
userinanother 3y ago
In Seattle we still allow cars at pike place market. Talk about stupid
almatabata 3y ago
I wonder if this ban only includes privately owned cars. They have those amphibienbuses that uses an ICE engine: https://oceanbus.se/en/ https://oceanbus.se/en/ I guess they will either shutdown or get an exemption somehow.
morelisp 3y ago
The reactions to this absolutely minimum possible move - "don't drive a specific kind of car in this tiny high street area unless you really need to" - are ranging from disingenuous to genuinely unhinged. I have no remaining hope for transit policy.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rajnathani 3y ago
We also need to reach a point where all vehicles have technology like this [0] to capture tyre wear particles at the source. [0] https://www.designboom.com/technology/device-captures-harmful-microplastic-particles-tyres-05-19-2020/ https://www.designboom.com/technology/device-captures-harmfu...

145 points by dsnr 3y ago

Another article in English: <https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-city-centre https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and...> Maps here: <https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-dieseldrivna-bilar-forbjuds-i-centrala-stockholm--an4nkd https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese...> and here: <https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-stockholms-innerstad/ https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-...>. Note that the area is comparatively tiny; 180 000m² according to some articles, closer to 200 000m² according to my measurements – but in any case smaller than 50 acres. OpenStreetMap link to the same area as the map, so you can zoom out and see the scales involved: <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/59.33461/18.06944 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/59.33461/18.06944>

paganel 3y ago
I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I suspect similar moves will be applied elsewhere here in Europe) to young people without kids, to immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) and to the "pied-a-terres" of the few upper-middle class people who will afford to have EVs (who will also own property in the suburbs, for that matter).
- f6v 3y ago
  How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.
  - paganel 3y ago
    > How does Western life experience necessitate a car? First of all, taking your kids by car to a much better school. Because we sure as hell cannot afford to own property close to those better schools.
    - johngalt_ 3y ago
      Have you ever heard of school bus?
      - paganel 3y ago
        Yeah, saw them in American movies. I've also heard about the "busing kids in" policy that didn't work, also from the States. Try to put your 10-year old kid on public transport half-away across the city in any big European city, especially after the sun is out in the winter.
        hef19898 3y ago
        You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?
        hef19898 3y ago
        That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding). Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simply not a thing I know. I do hear a ton of that from the US so.
- V__ 3y ago
  > having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) This is just not accurate.
- andyjohnson0 3y ago
  Do you actually have any evidence that this will happen? Or is this just an evidence-free rant?
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    Unfortunately, in my experience, to people who are concerned about “immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)”, this is what counts as a logical complaint.
  - paganel 3y ago
    I'm already seeing that flight to the suburbs happening here in Bucharest, yes. And, yes, the most recent census has confirmed that flight to the suburbs, that is for your "non-evidence rant" part of your comment.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      I wasn't aware Bucharest is in Sweden, you learn something new every day!
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    It increases the cost of living in those areas, so what they are saying makes sense just because of that.
- reisse 3y ago
  > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe And/or having a car is too expensive for some so people make do..
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are Glad you both agree!
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.
    - visres 3y ago
      Interesting, can you elaborate? What part of the city or surrounds do you find this to be true? I've found the reliability and mix of routes via tunnelbana, pendeltåg, trams, buses, and boats to be really good and know many Stockholmers without cars. Of course, road trips and moving large items become more of a hassle without a car, but can often be worked around with rentals/delivery srevices. Further, the more remote you get, the density of public transport options do become sparse, if an option at all. But within the radius of the tunnelbana, living without a car is very achievable. [edit: saw your other comment about further out areas, late night journeys and MTR, which are fair points. Cars are super convenient in many ways, no argument there.]
    - martindbp 3y ago
- poniko 3y ago
  Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.
  - paganel 3y ago
    > Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.
    - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
      Nobody takes the car to somewhere in downtown Stockholm to save money. That's always one of the most expensive options.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      So, Stockholm is a modern vity, O hope we can agree on that. Also, Sweden, and thus Stockholm, is in the West, making Stockholm a modern, western city. And it seems people in Stockholm are not living in abysmal conditions. Meaning everyone living in Stockholm right now is living a "modern, western lifestyle", by definition. It is, of course, an urban one, but there are more ways than one living ypur life. And nobody is trying to take that away from you or anyone else.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city. yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution. (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)
    - gruturo 3y ago
- threemux 3y ago
  I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here. You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to the country to relax? You're limited to the places you can get by transit. Kid wants to do something that isn't near a transit stop? Too bad. Visiting relatives outside the city? Better hope you can get a ride from the nearest transit stop. The list goes on and on. Being able to walk places is desirable, but it's best when you can walk/bike and drive a car if you need to.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
  - geraneum 3y ago
    “You will drink nothing behind the wheel until we approve it.” “You will wear this belt because we say so. You have no freedom.” If _they_ don’t want you to go somewhere, your car surely won’t take you there.
- paddim8 3y ago
  You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) Wait, what's this "Western-life experience" I'm missing out on by not having a car? Having lived in Western Europe all my life, I seem to have missed the memo about this.
yobbo 3y ago
Also; it is not a residential area. There are mostly office buildings and shopping centers there. It will require delivery trucks to be at least hybrids.
scatters 3y ago
OpenStreetMap has the zone as a map feature: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127782964 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127782964

ugjka 3y ago

With the quality of life there, they can afford such measures

Moldoteck 3y ago
Yep, considering they have good public transport especially in center, this measure is logical. Imo they should ban any car except service/delivery/etc in center but I guess small steps are better than none

Nullabillity 3y ago

Maybe focus on building out a competent public transport system first, rather than halving the capacity of the commuter rail. Or fix the several islands (both literal and metaphorical) that are effectively cut off from the main system. It's like these people live in a parallel reality where nobody needs to get in our out of the inner city.

Etheryte 3y ago
In my experience, the public transport system in Stockholm is pretty fine, is there a specific qualm you have with it? You don't have to be able to drive your car directly into the heart of the city.
- martindbp 3y ago
  "Pretty fine"? More like world class considering it's a city of just ~2m.
- Zee38484 3y ago
  [flagged]
paddim8 3y ago
Stockholm has great public transport?
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  Not at all. Anywhere further out like Nacka or Täby are nightmares to get to. Or if neither start nor destination is in the inner city. Or if it's after ~1AM. Or if service in your area is havily reduced (or shut down entirely!) because MTR can't be bothered to respect their drivers. Or if you're in an Arriva area, period. Maybe it looks brilliant if you're used to some US shithole. But even at its best it can't hold a candle to somewhere like the Copenhagen metro. And even that pales when compared to the trusty car that will take you from anywhere, to anywhere, whenever you want. Source: lived in Stockholm for 8 years so far, half of which were carless.
3y ago

boxed 3y ago

It's a tiny part of the center of Stockholm. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-dieseldrivna-bilar-forbjuds-i-centrala-stockholm--an4nkd https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... has a map. Roughly 4x4 blocks.

megabless123 3y ago
nice, sounds like a great start that is better than 0x0 blocks
- boxed 3y ago
  Well.. There are lots of roads that closed totally for cars over the years, and quite a few after COVID.
hyperman1 3y ago
It can grow. A few cities started car-free or car polution limiting zones. Every year,the zone grows and the rules get stricter. This way makes it safe to feel the waters, tweak public transports, get people's reaction, without killing it in the cradle.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Indeed! https://www.citiesforum.org/news/superblock-superilla-barcelona-a-city-redefined/ https://www.citiesforum.org/news/superblock-superilla-barcel... https://www.barcelona.cat/pla-superilla-barcelona/en https://www.barcelona.cat/pla-superilla-barcelona/en https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/4/9/18273894/barcelona-urban-planning-superblocks-poblenou https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/4/9/18273894... (Barcelona superblocks)
- londons_explore 3y ago
  It's pretty expensive for the city to do that. Tons of signage needs to be removed and replaced with every expansion, and if you choose automated enforcement you need to install lots of new cameras and posts too. Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Eg. Take the cars age, add the current year, subtract the cars rated mpg, add 10 if it's a diesel. If the result is 2050 or more, there is a fine of $20/day if you drive it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jeffbee 3y ago

Interesting that this bans PHEVs, because that is a substantial share of the EVs sold in Sweden, being about a third of EV sales and a fifth of total car sales recently. It seems like this will help kill the category.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Can't speak to Sweden, but it is a shame what has happened with the PHEV category generally. I drive a Volt and it's a fantastic car in that it's really more like "electric car that also has a gas engine" vs the bulk of PHEVs on the market which are really "hybrid that can be plugged in to get a few miles of somewhat-gas free driving." The latter seem to have been designed and sold mainly to skirt some regulations and take advantage of subsidies; along with a sometimes-hefty price increase. We also own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and while it's a fine SUV and family mover, it uses the ICE constantly, while I drive my Volt for months without ever using the combustion engine (to the point where it has to run a "maintenance cycle" to stop the gas from going bad). Meanwhile the Volt was killed off by GM. It's a shame because I feel like consumers would have responded more positively to electrification if more cars like this had been rolled out and the engineering (and marketing and sales) had been taken more seriously on them.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Around here the Clarity PHEV are seen daily (I own one). I don't know if that was because of subsidies/incentives or what. In my use case the ~35 mile EV range is perfect and like you I experience the engine running only when the computer commands maintenance cycles, or if I take a long trip and it flips into HV mode. Considering the embodied energy of a full EV especially in the year that I bought the Clarity, I still think it was the right choice at the time.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Yeah the Clarity was only really produced in volume as a compliance car in states that mandated it, though. It never really showed up around here (Ontario) for example. Whereas GM rolled out the Volt across all their dealerships everywhere -- though obviously sales only really happened in places with incentives. Technically on paper the Clarity PHEV looks on par with the Volt; but Honda didn't really want to sell it ... and GM killed the Volt. So that category of vehicle (range assisted EV instead of "PHEV") seems DOA.

CalRobert 3y ago

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fantastic_ to be able to just bike.... everywhere. Or get a train. or bus. Or, sometimes, use a car-share vehicle. It's absolute freedom. And I'm a hell of a lot less worried about my kids being killed by drivers - the leading cause of dead kids in the US. Even here there's too many Dodge Rams though. And large SUV's - especially electric ones - are increasingly popular.

wwtrv 3y ago
Yet the overwhelming majority of people in the Netherlands still uses cars as their primary method of transport: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Travel_distance_per_person_per_day_by_main_travel_mode_for_urban_mobility_on_all_days_(%25)_v3.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... of course if you moved there from the USA (which I assume you did?) the car situation there is not that much better than other European countries.
- InitialLastName 3y ago
  That's not how I interpret that chart. The title says "Travel Distance per person day by main travel mode for urban mobility on all days". That is ambiguous, but suggests that the numbers are actually the share of the travel distance for peoples' main mode, meaning that people who need to travel further in a day tend to have cars, to an overwhelming extent. That is still a coherent situation in a world where most people don't use cars because their daily travel needs only involve short distances (e.g. because they live in an area where all of their needs are met within a short range).
  - yourusername 3y ago
    Even if you go by number of trips and then even if you limit yourself to just trips 3.7 to 7.5 km cars are still are 50% more common than bikes. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/figures/detail/84708ENG https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/figures/detail/84708ENG

pera 3y ago

I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.

qwytw 3y ago
EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs. Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more. Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy... Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers. However switching to EVs is not a good longterm solution. e.g. there won't be any incentives for massively increasing investment into public transport because everyone can just drive a "clean" EV. *I'm not saying that brake and tire wear is that much higher for EVs, rather that if we only look at ICE vehicles tires/breaks are as big a source of PM 2.5 as the engine itself.
- oittaa 3y ago
  [flagged]
- elric 3y ago
  That's probably true if you only look at the cars themselves, but don't forget that getting petrol in cars requires a huge petrochemical industry, from oil wells to refineries, pipelines and pumping stations. Each of those steps also emits all kinds of crap. The same is true for electricity from many sources, but overall I suspect EVs come out somewhat better than petrol cars. Of course, cars are generally too big, too heavy, and too fast. Addressing those issues would benefit everyone, regardless of fuel source.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    Yeah, my argument is mainly about pollution in inner cities/densely populated areas (where just switching to EV certainly does not go far enough)

DrThunder 3y ago

Sounds like they need the London treatment.

hkon 3y ago

[flagged]

ecmascript 3y ago

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but that city is very hostile against car traffic in general (which is stupid in my opinion). Finding a parking space in the outskirts of the city is very hard and I have searched for a spot in like an hour when visiting my family. They build a lot of housing but no parking spaces for residents. Sometimes if you're lucky they'll build like 1 parking space per 20 residents when in reality 19 of these residents have a car. I know personally some areas close to my mother where they have taken areas for parking and built housing there making the actual parking spaces go negative. Fine if you want to get rid of petrol/diesel but there are alternatives and you don't have to make things shitty for people with electric cars as well. I think people will start moving from Stockholm because who wants to live in a city where housing is 3-4 times the national avg, people being shot all the time and even blown up when in bed in your own home. Then the politicians responsible cares more about making it more expensive for you to go to work which all seems more meaningless since you pay so much in taxes that goes to immigration and people not contributing to society. Productive will move to the country side where they can safely drive to work and work less because working hard is just not worth it in Sweden.

thebiss 3y ago
The article indicates there will be some exceptions: > While it is primarily intended to allow for only fully electric cars, bigger vans with plug-in hybrid engines will also be allowed, and exceptions will be made for ambulances and police cars, as well as cars in which the driver or passenger has a documented disability
- ecmascript 3y ago
  So I guess the imported soy lattes of those who made the rule changes are going to have a price increase due to delivery companies that need to upgrade their fleet. ;D

morelisp 3y ago

However small it is, it seems far preferable to Berlin's approach of building a highway down the middle while simultaneously refusing to even consider the 2035 target.

jansan 3y ago
Why? Cars are the most convenient way of transportation.
- morelisp 3y ago
  No.

verisimi 3y ago

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for individuals to have less control over their lives - shifting that control to the governance structure. Did anyone discuss the transfer of control, agree to it, vote on it? It's quite amazing to me that people are going to lose freedom of movement, will pay more etc and be happy to do so. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

gruturo 3y ago
You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  The huge oil reserves and tiny population make it much easier to give everyone a good quality of life... It also masks the effects of inefficient decisionmaking.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Only Norway has oil so, Denmark Sweden and Finland much less so.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      https://geology.com/usgs/oil-shale/estonia-sweden-oil-shale.shtml https://geology.com/usgs/oil-shale/estonia-sweden-oil-shale....
      - hef19898 3y ago
        And just how much money are tzey making of that? Oil nation money?

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

[dead]

throwaw33333434 3y ago

I wonder why when Stockholm did it, it made the news, but, say Kraków did it we don't see it. City pays for PR?

stuaxo 3y ago
Probably just sends a press release.
Tade0 3y ago
Does it matter? Kraków is doing its own thing without much fanfare and I think it's great. I went there a few weeks ago for the first time in 6 years or so and could easily identify positive changes that make living there more pleasant. Also while driving was a little slow (as usual), I had no problem finding (paid) parking close to the old town.
carlosjobim 3y ago
There's probably a lot of Swedes here from the Reddit exodus.
mikkelam 3y ago
Are you talking about the Low Emission Zone? That seems to be a reduction of high emission cars and not really a total ban as described in the article.
belorn 3y ago
Kraków is a low emission zone, not a zero emission zone which is what Stockholm is doing. It not the first EU initiative for ZEZ, but it seems more often that ZEZ get implemented by making it a car-free area. To add more context: "The first phase of the Krakow LEZ will restrict vehicles with EU exhaust emission standards Euro 1 petrol and Euro 2 diesel vehicles, before tightening restrictions further in 2026. After then, only cars with a minimum norm Euro 3 for petrol and Euro 5 for diesel will be allowed in the city (20% of the current fleet will be affected). "

matthewfelgate 3y ago

How are you going to enforce a plan on petrol and diesel cars in certain areas?

torcete 3y ago

It will probably make the city quieter and cleaner, but wouldn't make it also exclusive for people that can afford an electric car?

stuaxo 3y ago
It's four blocks, you could drive to where you can park and then walk.

userinanother 3y ago

In Seattle we still allow cars at pike place market. Talk about stupid

almatabata 3y ago

I wonder if this ban only includes privately owned cars. They have those amphibienbuses that uses an ICE engine: https://oceanbus.se/en/ https://oceanbus.se/en/ I guess they will either shutdown or get an exemption somehow.

morelisp 3y ago

The reactions to this absolutely minimum possible move - "don't drive a specific kind of car in this tiny high street area unless you really need to" - are ranging from disingenuous to genuinely unhinged. I have no remaining hope for transit policy.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rajnathani 3y ago

We also need to reach a point where all vehicles have technology like this [0] to capture tyre wear particles at the source. [0] https://www.designboom.com/technology/device-captures-harmful-microplastic-particles-tyres-05-19-2020/ https://www.designboom.com/technology/device-captures-harmfu...