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In the UK we, rightly, hold his creations up as great feats of engineering. You’ll often hear people say we need to get back to that sort of thing, which I agre

In the UK we, rightly, hold his creations up as great feats of engineering. You’ll often hear people say we need to get back to that sort of thing, which I agree with. Sadly many projects that could become those great icons in the future now get killed by (often the same) people complaining about wasting money and not wanting it built near them. I wonder how those projects were viewed when proposed and being built and what we can learn about our current approach in the UK. I often think people feel the UK is “done” and we shouldn’t strive to built new things.

moomin 3y ago
Can you imagine going back in time and telling Brunel that by 2023, Britain can’t build a rail line from London to Birmingham?
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  For sure. The thing is we can do it, from a technical perspective, we absolutely have the skills, talent and knowledge to do it. It’s everything else which is failing to work correctly.
frereubu 3y ago
This is a great edition of the BBC radio programme In Our Time, about how the engineer Joseph Bazalgette was given the task of building proper sewerage for London after the "Great Stink" of 1858. It's remarkable how much more positive people were about large-scale engineering projects like this, and the participants in the show remark on that (although I do wonder if there were many working class people who hated the idea because it meant e.g. their house was demolished to make way for the works but they had no power to stop it). https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gjcm https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gjcm Edit: And this is a great article on the reasons why large infrastructure projects in the UK are far too expensive: https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/britains-infrastructure-is-too-expensive https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/britains-infrastructure-is-too... I bet if we could bring them in on budget people would get behind them much more.
- djaychela 3y ago
  Would have liked to see more detail on why projects are so expensive in the UK - there was some detail in the road section (changes from objections leading to more expensive features to placate these complaints), but can't see that for underground projects, for instance... I know when the Olympics was in Weymouth and Portland, someone knew a contractor who was doing it, and they were able to charge 3x their normal rate as long as it was guaranteed to be on time. They made a fortune. In addition, a local road building project near me (which is on the road between London and Weymouth) was pushed through to provide a better route - despite it being massively expensive and making a terrible long-term mess of what was a bad junction that needed a flyover, not the awful hamburger junction solution that the local area is now saddled with that is always on the traffic reports.
  - SJSque 3y ago
    > not the awful hamburger junction solution that the local area is now saddled with... Do you mean the Canford Bottom Roundabout [1] by any chance? :) [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/rpTJ3aPhsejWcChV8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/rpTJ3aPhsejWcChV8
  - immibis 3y ago
    Capitalism is why.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
> I often think people feel the UK is “done” and we shouldn’t strive to built new things. I'd say the problem is cronyism and corruption with our politicians. They managed to splash £76million on a useless "NHS" Covid App (not NHS) and any solution to a problem is just seen as a way of funnelling public money into the pockets of the politicians' friends and family (c.f. Rishi Sunak's granting of new oil exploration licenses and his wife's family's investments).
- graemep 3y ago
  I do not think so. The UK is a lot less corrupt that countries that are enthusiastic about big projects (most of Asia for a start). I think people do want it, but the government is making bad picks. HS2 is a good example. Spending that much while not maintaining the (unreliable ) existing lines is pointless.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > HS2 is a good example. Spending that much while not maintaining the (unreliable ) existing lines is pointless. I don't believe there ever was a solid business case for HS2, but Adonis gave it the green light and no-one since was brave enough to pull the plug. "The project itself goes back to 1982, when a group of managers from the nationalised British Rail visited the new TGV railway in France. They returned boggle-eyed at the sight of a train racing at 270kmph (150mph) down its own track, crossing France, from Paris to Lyon, in two hours. Among the visitors was a 35-year-old civil engineer, Jim Steer. He was captivated by speed and, as he told me recently, dismayed by the conviction of his colleagues that “in Britain we would never be allowed to do it”. As with Concorde, Steer understood that the idea of speed could arouse politicians and open purse strings to projects that might otherwise get nowhere. It was speed that had persuaded such prestige-sensitive governments as Japan and France to build new railways. Steer was to be one of three men – the others were a rail-obsessed peer and a chancellor of the exchequer – who kept the dream of high-speed rail alive over the next three decades. Educated at Imperial College London, he trained at the contractors Freeman Fox, but in 1978 he turned freelance as a transport consultant, setting up his own firm: Steer Davies Gleave. A natural buccaneer, he proved adept at winning consultancy contracts anywhere there was a glimmer of interest in fast trains. “Jim was like a terrier,” a contemporary told me. “His name popped up at the foot of reports, inquiries and surveys, wherever the words high-speed rail occurred.”" "It is the most extravagant infrastructure project in British history – but nobody can say why we need it. How did HS2 ever get so far?" https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... "The controversial campaign to build a high-speed rail line between London and Birmingham was dealt a blow on Tuesday when an independent report questioned the business case for the £32bn scheme." https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/21/business-case-hs2-rail-link-questioned https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/21/business-case-hs2... "In 2010, when a high-speed rail line from London to the north – HS2 – was proposed by the outgoing Labour government, I wrote an article arguing that the numbers didn’t add up. The environmental benefits had been inflated by a series of blatant accounting tricks and concocted figures. What the government called the “business case” for the scheme was in fact a cost-benefit analysis, in which the supposed economic benefits had been amplified by outright assaults on common sense. The case for HS2 always was a baggage train of bullshit." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fiasco-clientelism-profit-big-projects https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fi...
pjc50 3y ago
By the time of Brunel's death, Britain had a population of 24 million, most of whom couldn't vote.
windowliker 3y ago
Dinorwig hydroelectric power station in Wales is probably the last example of great British engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station Amazing to think that, adjusted for inflation from 1984 pounds, it cost less to build than ten miles of track on HS2 (current estimate £307m per mile).
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  I’ve done a tour, very enjoyable and very cool to see up close

moomin 3y ago

Can you imagine going back in time and telling Brunel that by 2023, Britain can’t build a rail line from London to Birmingham?

simonbarker87 3y ago
For sure. The thing is we can do it, from a technical perspective, we absolutely have the skills, talent and knowledge to do it. It’s everything else which is failing to work correctly.

frereubu 3y ago

This is a great edition of the BBC radio programme In Our Time, about how the engineer Joseph Bazalgette was given the task of building proper sewerage for London after the "Great Stink" of 1858. It's remarkable how much more positive people were about large-scale engineering projects like this, and the participants in the show remark on that (although I do wonder if there were many working class people who hated the idea because it meant e.g. their house was demolished to make way for the works but they had no power to stop it). https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gjcm https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gjcm Edit: And this is a great article on the reasons why large infrastructure projects in the UK are far too expensive: https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/britains-infrastructure-is-too-expensive https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/britains-infrastructure-is-too... I bet if we could bring them in on budget people would get behind them much more.

djaychela 3y ago
Would have liked to see more detail on why projects are so expensive in the UK - there was some detail in the road section (changes from objections leading to more expensive features to placate these complaints), but can't see that for underground projects, for instance... I know when the Olympics was in Weymouth and Portland, someone knew a contractor who was doing it, and they were able to charge 3x their normal rate as long as it was guaranteed to be on time. They made a fortune. In addition, a local road building project near me (which is on the road between London and Weymouth) was pushed through to provide a better route - despite it being massively expensive and making a terrible long-term mess of what was a bad junction that needed a flyover, not the awful hamburger junction solution that the local area is now saddled with that is always on the traffic reports.
- SJSque 3y ago
  > not the awful hamburger junction solution that the local area is now saddled with... Do you mean the Canford Bottom Roundabout [1] by any chance? :) [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/rpTJ3aPhsejWcChV8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/rpTJ3aPhsejWcChV8
- immibis 3y ago
  Capitalism is why.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

> I often think people feel the UK is “done” and we shouldn’t strive to built new things. I'd say the problem is cronyism and corruption with our politicians. They managed to splash £76million on a useless "NHS" Covid App (not NHS) and any solution to a problem is just seen as a way of funnelling public money into the pockets of the politicians' friends and family (c.f. Rishi Sunak's granting of new oil exploration licenses and his wife's family's investments).

graemep 3y ago
I do not think so. The UK is a lot less corrupt that countries that are enthusiastic about big projects (most of Asia for a start). I think people do want it, but the government is making bad picks. HS2 is a good example. Spending that much while not maintaining the (unreliable ) existing lines is pointless.
- logifail 3y ago
  > HS2 is a good example. Spending that much while not maintaining the (unreliable ) existing lines is pointless. I don't believe there ever was a solid business case for HS2, but Adonis gave it the green light and no-one since was brave enough to pull the plug. "The project itself goes back to 1982, when a group of managers from the nationalised British Rail visited the new TGV railway in France. They returned boggle-eyed at the sight of a train racing at 270kmph (150mph) down its own track, crossing France, from Paris to Lyon, in two hours. Among the visitors was a 35-year-old civil engineer, Jim Steer. He was captivated by speed and, as he told me recently, dismayed by the conviction of his colleagues that “in Britain we would never be allowed to do it”. As with Concorde, Steer understood that the idea of speed could arouse politicians and open purse strings to projects that might otherwise get nowhere. It was speed that had persuaded such prestige-sensitive governments as Japan and France to build new railways. Steer was to be one of three men – the others were a rail-obsessed peer and a chancellor of the exchequer – who kept the dream of high-speed rail alive over the next three decades. Educated at Imperial College London, he trained at the contractors Freeman Fox, but in 1978 he turned freelance as a transport consultant, setting up his own firm: Steer Davies Gleave. A natural buccaneer, he proved adept at winning consultancy contracts anywhere there was a glimmer of interest in fast trains. “Jim was like a terrier,” a contemporary told me. “His name popped up at the foot of reports, inquiries and surveys, wherever the words high-speed rail occurred.”" "It is the most extravagant infrastructure project in British history – but nobody can say why we need it. How did HS2 ever get so far?" https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... "The controversial campaign to build a high-speed rail line between London and Birmingham was dealt a blow on Tuesday when an independent report questioned the business case for the £32bn scheme." https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/21/business-case-hs2-rail-link-questioned https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/21/business-case-hs2... "In 2010, when a high-speed rail line from London to the north – HS2 – was proposed by the outgoing Labour government, I wrote an article arguing that the numbers didn’t add up. The environmental benefits had been inflated by a series of blatant accounting tricks and concocted figures. What the government called the “business case” for the scheme was in fact a cost-benefit analysis, in which the supposed economic benefits had been amplified by outright assaults on common sense. The case for HS2 always was a baggage train of bullshit." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fiasco-clientelism-profit-big-projects https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fi...

pjc50 3y ago

By the time of Brunel's death, Britain had a population of 24 million, most of whom couldn't vote.

windowliker 3y ago

Dinorwig hydroelectric power station in Wales is probably the last example of great British engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station Amazing to think that, adjusted for inflation from 1984 pounds, it cost less to build than ten miles of track on HS2 (current estimate £307m per mile).

simonbarker87 3y ago
I’ve done a tour, very enjoyable and very cool to see up close