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Log seems like a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast like myself. The ecosystem is so much more

Log seems like a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast like myself. The ecosystem is so much more mature and the gap seems to be growing not shrinking. Android has Raw Video with MotionCam which also produces insanely good results¹ (even better than iPhone's ProRes video), but everything else just sucks. [1]: https://youtu.be/O5fnGDR4i9w?feature=shared https://youtu.be/O5fnGDR4i9w?feature=shared

dharma1 3y ago
MotionCam is great! They’ve been flying under the radar of RED lawyers (patent for compressed raw video) - long may it continue
- mirsadm 3y ago
  I'm the dev of MotionCam. AFAIK the app is not infringing on that patent because I use my own form of lossless compression.
  - pas 3y ago
    If RED has a patent granted with a claim on compressed RAW data streaming/storage, then it doesn't matter which algorithm. (Though of course one could argue it's too broad, but it's not cheap to make this argument.)
    - mirsadm 3y ago
      I am not a lawyer but I believe their patent is regarding visually lossless compression of RAW data. MotionCam uses a form of bit packing to compress frames in real time losslessly. AFAIK that is not the same thing and does not infringe on the patent. Again I could be wrong and if I turn out to be wrong I can always disable compression entirely or just run it through zstd. I doubt their parent extends to just compressing some integers because zipping a RAW frame would not be possible which is clearly nonsense.
      - pas 3y ago
        > visually lossless compression Does it mean they apply some kind of human perception model (like audio codecs apply a psychoacustic one) to determine what detail can be omitted without future viewers potentially noticing the difference? > zipping a RAW frame would not be possible why? I mean it's just a big blob, if there's a lot of similar substrings in it, it might give a few percent compression ... also, nonsense doesn't mean non-patentable, right?
        mirsadm 3y ago
        > Does it mean they apply some kind of human perception model (like audio codecs apply a psychoacustic one) to determine what detail can be omitted without future viewers potentially noticing the difference? I have not looked into it too deeply but it appears to be based on wavelet compression (more or less a copy of JPEG2000). They are able to achieve much better compression ratios. I am restricted to lossless compression (and in real time on a mobile device). > why? I mean it's just a big blob, if there's a lot of similar substrings in it, it might give a few percent compression ... also, nonsense doesn't mean non-patentable, right? What I mean is that it is unlikely that any form of compression of RAW video data is encompassed by their patent. But who knows.
        dharma1 3y ago
        Perhaps it could also be argued their patent covers cameras and their manufacturers, not 3rd party software that users can install on their phones? Also don’t think MotionCam has enough users for their lawyers to care. Either way thank you for your software, it’s dope
      - eurekin 3y ago
        Just chiming in to say thank you for doing such a product. Have you ever consider reaching out to any mirrorless manufacturer (maybe some form of a partnership?) about recording it's camera's sensor data? I have a Nikon and I'm still salty my Z 6I doesn't have real RAW :)
        3y ago
  - heartbreak 3y ago
    Gosh why didn’t Sony’s attorneys think of that.
wraptile 3y ago
> a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast Correct me if I'm wrong but there's nothing stopping Android of supporting Log (or similar). I'm not a video engineer but it really doesn't seem that magic that it couldn't be supported outside of iphone 15, right? My guess that if this gains any real traction it'll show up in the next Android flagship.
- adql 3y ago
  I think you're spot on, there just needs to be enough demand for manufacturers to compete on it. But the fragmentation does work against it. If some company does it it would be limited to their camera app and their format. Would be interesting if some company just decided to put c-mount on their phone so you could use actual proper lens...
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  There are several apps on Android that do this already. Since 2021 at least. https://youtu.be/UEedYitrSiw?si=Ufj0HXW_07PfXIxg https://youtu.be/UEedYitrSiw?si=Ufj0HXW_07PfXIxg
maksim-m 3y ago
> Log seems like a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast like myself On Android you have mcpro24fps app that supports multiple log profiles, shooting 10 bit video and more.
- ayoisaiah 3y ago
  I've been a long-term mcpro24fps and a user of Filmic pro before that. It's a great app, no doubt about it. The issue is not the app, but the OEMs who makes things difficult, artificially limiting the capabilities of the devices and even removing features in updates. Nothing is consistent and each device works differently from the next one, even from the same manufacturer. A long running joke in the McPro24fps Telegram chat is to never upgrade!

dharma1 3y ago

MotionCam is great! They’ve been flying under the radar of RED lawyers (patent for compressed raw video) - long may it continue

mirsadm 3y ago
I'm the dev of MotionCam. AFAIK the app is not infringing on that patent because I use my own form of lossless compression.
- pas 3y ago
  If RED has a patent granted with a claim on compressed RAW data streaming/storage, then it doesn't matter which algorithm. (Though of course one could argue it's too broad, but it's not cheap to make this argument.)
  - mirsadm 3y ago
    I am not a lawyer but I believe their patent is regarding visually lossless compression of RAW data. MotionCam uses a form of bit packing to compress frames in real time losslessly. AFAIK that is not the same thing and does not infringe on the patent. Again I could be wrong and if I turn out to be wrong I can always disable compression entirely or just run it through zstd. I doubt their parent extends to just compressing some integers because zipping a RAW frame would not be possible which is clearly nonsense.
    - pas 3y ago
      > visually lossless compression Does it mean they apply some kind of human perception model (like audio codecs apply a psychoacustic one) to determine what detail can be omitted without future viewers potentially noticing the difference? > zipping a RAW frame would not be possible why? I mean it's just a big blob, if there's a lot of similar substrings in it, it might give a few percent compression ... also, nonsense doesn't mean non-patentable, right?
      - mirsadm 3y ago
        > Does it mean they apply some kind of human perception model (like audio codecs apply a psychoacustic one) to determine what detail can be omitted without future viewers potentially noticing the difference? I have not looked into it too deeply but it appears to be based on wavelet compression (more or less a copy of JPEG2000). They are able to achieve much better compression ratios. I am restricted to lossless compression (and in real time on a mobile device). > why? I mean it's just a big blob, if there's a lot of similar substrings in it, it might give a few percent compression ... also, nonsense doesn't mean non-patentable, right? What I mean is that it is unlikely that any form of compression of RAW video data is encompassed by their patent. But who knows.
        dharma1 3y ago
        Perhaps it could also be argued their patent covers cameras and their manufacturers, not 3rd party software that users can install on their phones? Also don’t think MotionCam has enough users for their lawyers to care. Either way thank you for your software, it’s dope
    - eurekin 3y ago
      Just chiming in to say thank you for doing such a product. Have you ever consider reaching out to any mirrorless manufacturer (maybe some form of a partnership?) about recording it's camera's sensor data? I have a Nikon and I'm still salty my Z 6I doesn't have real RAW :)
      - 3y ago
- heartbreak 3y ago
  Gosh why didn’t Sony’s attorneys think of that.

wraptile 3y ago

> a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast Correct me if I'm wrong but there's nothing stopping Android of supporting Log (or similar). I'm not a video engineer but it really doesn't seem that magic that it couldn't be supported outside of iphone 15, right? My guess that if this gains any real traction it'll show up in the next Android flagship.

adql 3y ago
I think you're spot on, there just needs to be enough demand for manufacturers to compete on it. But the fragmentation does work against it. If some company does it it would be limited to their camera app and their format. Would be interesting if some company just decided to put c-mount on their phone so you could use actual proper lens...
lern_too_spel 3y ago
There are several apps on Android that do this already. Since 2021 at least. https://youtu.be/UEedYitrSiw?si=Ufj0HXW_07PfXIxg https://youtu.be/UEedYitrSiw?si=Ufj0HXW_07PfXIxg

maksim-m 3y ago

> Log seems like a strong reason to finally switch from Android to iPhone if you're a photography/filmmaking enthusiast like myself On Android you have mcpro24fps app that supports multiple log profiles, shooting 10 bit video and more.

ayoisaiah 3y ago
I've been a long-term mcpro24fps and a user of Filmic pro before that. It's a great app, no doubt about it. The issue is not the app, but the OEMs who makes things difficult, artificially limiting the capabilities of the devices and even removing features in updates. Nothing is consistent and each device works differently from the next one, even from the same manufacturer. A long running joke in the McPro24fps Telegram chat is to never upgrade!