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Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE.

Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution problem.

isilofi 3y ago
You like "low maintenance". Car companies don't. A significant part of their business is tied to replacement parts and their chains of brand dealerships and brand workshops. With EVs, that whole gravy train might end, or at least loose a lot.
- jki275 3y ago
  Toyota absolutely wants your car to never break. That's their entire business philosophy, and why I drive Toyotas and have for decades.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    But you pay for that privilege, e.g. the "Toyota Tax"
    - jki275 3y ago
      You are correct, and I'm happy to pay it!
nostrademons 3y ago
It destroys a lot of the competitive advantage Toyota has. Toyota is very, very good at making mechanical components to very high precision & quality levels. They've built up this core competency by careful attention to detail over decades. It's one of the main reasons why people buy Toyotas. With EVs, you remove many of the components that are required with ICE. Hence, it doesn't matter how good you are at making those components and sourcing them from suppliers. Hence, a random startup can do nearly as well as Toyota, with their billions in capital invested and decades of experience. It's kind of a shame, though, since I'd love to have something with the reliability of a Toyota that also applies that reliability to the EV powertrain. Maybe one of their ex-employees will start something.
- userinanother 3y ago
  It’s not the drive train I worry about on a new car. Those components are relatively easy to replace even if they can get expensive. The big problem I worry about is wiring and electronics. If the wiring is messed to the whole car might get totaled because finding someone to diagnose is near impossible
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  They're also operating in a country where life long employment is the norm, people work very hard to get a job at Toyota, it's seen as quite an honor to work there. They're facing a crisis here. In my opinion they either adapt and win, or the majority of staff will lose their job anyway. They can't fire tens of thousands of factory workers so they're doing absolutely everything they can to keep those production lines going in some way or another. I personally don't understand why they can't retrain those staff and build other things such as an EV charging station factory. But yeah, I guess they have little imagination or drive to actually solve the problem and instead play with stupid moonshot ideas like this. The only thing they have left is a great reputation for building ICE cars. Not sure how long that will last though if this madness continues.
spacemadness 3y ago
I also like quiet. EVs gave me some hope for less noise pollution since Americans will never give up their cars. Reintroducing ICE brings us back to square one.
- oofdere 3y ago
  EV's are only quieter inside of the car, at speed they're just as loud as ICE cars, sometimes louder. [0] If we're going to reduce car noise, the only option is to make them go slower and move them away from residential areas. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8
  - tempestn 3y ago
    They're clearly not. Source: my ears listening to EVs vs ICE cars going by me on the road. At high speeds and/or on wet roads, tire noise can dominate, but in the city there's far more noise from engine/exhaust.
BenoitP 3y ago
Toyota is the top company in global market share [1]. They are way more affected by global systemic issues than others. This means: * They can't retreat into a niche * Their bread and butter is efficiency, accumulated through tears and scale effects through decades of experience. That's a pretty deep moat. All that is partially reset with an industry-wide change * Global copper, cobalt, lithium reserves (new deposits are found but with way lower grades, also it takes 15 years currently to set up a new mine) may be enough for the westernized world; but they are not for the whole world. This means effectively reducing the global market. In other words: they are against de-growth. But IMHO this will happen anyway with oil depletion looming in. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/316786/global-market-share-of-the-leading-automakers/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/316786/global-market-sha...
- rini17 3y ago
  If they expect the classical BEVs to run into problems with supply of the metals, that still does not explain the weird choices Toyota makes. Why don't they explore options that don't require consumers directly handling large amounts of dangerous substances like hydrogen or anhydrous ammonia.
  - tempestn 3y ago
    Options such as?

isilofi 3y ago

You like "low maintenance". Car companies don't. A significant part of their business is tied to replacement parts and their chains of brand dealerships and brand workshops. With EVs, that whole gravy train might end, or at least loose a lot.

jki275 3y ago
Toyota absolutely wants your car to never break. That's their entire business philosophy, and why I drive Toyotas and have for decades.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  But you pay for that privilege, e.g. the "Toyota Tax"
  - jki275 3y ago
    You are correct, and I'm happy to pay it!

nostrademons 3y ago

It destroys a lot of the competitive advantage Toyota has. Toyota is very, very good at making mechanical components to very high precision & quality levels. They've built up this core competency by careful attention to detail over decades. It's one of the main reasons why people buy Toyotas. With EVs, you remove many of the components that are required with ICE. Hence, it doesn't matter how good you are at making those components and sourcing them from suppliers. Hence, a random startup can do nearly as well as Toyota, with their billions in capital invested and decades of experience. It's kind of a shame, though, since I'd love to have something with the reliability of a Toyota that also applies that reliability to the EV powertrain. Maybe one of their ex-employees will start something.

userinanother 3y ago
It’s not the drive train I worry about on a new car. Those components are relatively easy to replace even if they can get expensive. The big problem I worry about is wiring and electronics. If the wiring is messed to the whole car might get totaled because finding someone to diagnose is near impossible
ChatGTP 3y ago
They're also operating in a country where life long employment is the norm, people work very hard to get a job at Toyota, it's seen as quite an honor to work there. They're facing a crisis here. In my opinion they either adapt and win, or the majority of staff will lose their job anyway. They can't fire tens of thousands of factory workers so they're doing absolutely everything they can to keep those production lines going in some way or another. I personally don't understand why they can't retrain those staff and build other things such as an EV charging station factory. But yeah, I guess they have little imagination or drive to actually solve the problem and instead play with stupid moonshot ideas like this. The only thing they have left is a great reputation for building ICE cars. Not sure how long that will last though if this madness continues.

spacemadness 3y ago

I also like quiet. EVs gave me some hope for less noise pollution since Americans will never give up their cars. Reintroducing ICE brings us back to square one.

oofdere 3y ago
EV's are only quieter inside of the car, at speed they're just as loud as ICE cars, sometimes louder. [0] If we're going to reduce car noise, the only option is to make them go slower and move them away from residential areas. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8
- tempestn 3y ago
  They're clearly not. Source: my ears listening to EVs vs ICE cars going by me on the road. At high speeds and/or on wet roads, tire noise can dominate, but in the city there's far more noise from engine/exhaust.

BenoitP 3y ago

Toyota is the top company in global market share [1]. They are way more affected by global systemic issues than others. This means: * They can't retreat into a niche * Their bread and butter is efficiency, accumulated through tears and scale effects through decades of experience. That's a pretty deep moat. All that is partially reset with an industry-wide change * Global copper, cobalt, lithium reserves (new deposits are found but with way lower grades, also it takes 15 years currently to set up a new mine) may be enough for the westernized world; but they are not for the whole world. This means effectively reducing the global market. In other words: they are against de-growth. But IMHO this will happen anyway with oil depletion looming in. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/316786/global-market-share-of-the-leading-automakers/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/316786/global-market-sha...

rini17 3y ago
If they expect the classical BEVs to run into problems with supply of the metals, that still does not explain the weird choices Toyota makes. Why don't they explore options that don't require consumers directly handling large amounts of dangerous substances like hydrogen or anhydrous ammonia.
- tempestn 3y ago
  Options such as?