7 ms·

The Good Life: What can we learn from the history of utopianism?

27 points by Hooke 3y ago

chongli 3y ago
I took a philosophy course on utopian literature. My biggest takeaway is that every utopia has some marginalized group for which the society is less than a utopia (more like a dystopia). In Thomas More’s Utopia, this was a literal caste of gold-chained slaves. In the latter half of the course we studied dystopias and it became pretty clear these are two sides of the same coin. The issue with utopias is that they don’t admit a plurality of lifestyles: they force everyone to conform. That, in itself, is dystopian to a lot of people. Real life is messy and people are different. A “proper” utopia for all is always going to be messy and imperfect; a work in progress.
- lr4444lr 3y ago
  Did you by any chance read Aldous Huxley's "The Island"? The moral is that a utopia where tolerance for plurality is permitted is ideologically incapable of defending itself from external threats.
  - m-i-l 3y ago
    > "The moral is that a utopia where tolerance for plurality is permitted is ideologically incapable of defending itself from external threats." See also the Paradox of tolerance[0]: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
  - pstuart 3y ago
    Perhaps I was too young and naive at the time, but I took "The Island" to be an instruction manual on how to do it right (except for the ending, of course). Here and now, boys!
  - nonameiguess 3y ago
    It works reasonably well at the level of the entire planet. Every conceivable lifestyle is acceptable somewhere, and nobody has yet managed to conquer all nations to undo that. Where that doesn't help in practice is relocation is often difficult logistically and emotionally, communities exert a grip on people forcing them to stay, some countries forcibly won't let you leave, and, as far as I know, no country lets you freely enter and stay.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
GeoAtreides 3y ago
No mention of The Culture? I suppose it's not "history" per se, it's quite recent. For interested people, a short description of The Culture, as written by the author, can be found here: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm In short, it's literally "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" and it's viewed by many as a perfect utopia. A few take a dimmer view, in my opinion because it exposes the underlining meaninglessness and purposelessness of the universe. The Culture forms the background for a excellent series of books written by Scottish author Iain M Banks; I fully recommend it.
- huytersd 3y ago
  There’s nothing particularly gay about it aside from a few instances spread across the series. Why attempt to poison a well that has such a devoted following?
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    That's literally what "the kids" call it. You can look that phrase up.
  - GeoAtreides 3y ago
    The Culture doesn't have gendered pronouns and you can change your sex by thinking really hard (really); there's a social expectation that each individual should sire a child and be pregnant with one during their lifetime. Most people in the XXI century would agree that's at least a bit gay :)
    - huytersd 3y ago
      Of course there are pronouns, that’s how everyone is referred to (he, she, him, her etc.). Every book in the series uses them, even for some of the minds. There is an ability for an actual sex change, the genetic changes for which can be kicked of by wanting to change. No expectation whatsoever. That whole sequence is touched on in one book for about 3 pages and this is a series with 12+ books.
  - 3y ago
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
Ezra Klein spent 80 minutes or so talking to Ghodsee back in June 2023. As I recall, it was a good conversation. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/opinion/ezra-klein-kristen-ghodsee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/opinion/ezra-klein-kriste... There's a transcript there if you prefer to read.
at_a_remove 3y ago
Every dystopia starts off being someone else's utopia. Even the Federation. Just the existence of interplanetary hybrids (Spock being the basic example) combined with the repression of genetic engineering indicates the existence of a profession which may not be spoken of to make such things happen. (Yes, The Progenitors, they were fun, and the female Changeling to boot, but you still couldn't get easy cross-breeding) The Federation still keeps a lot on lockdown. They're not handing out Class 5 replicators easily, they still ration holodeck usage, and so on. If anything, the Federation has always looked like a society where people are funneled into various professions based on some kind of convenience. Starfleet looks like a great way to give the ambitious and rambunctious something to do while the rest of Earth pushes softly-glowing widgets around. And then there's Quark's "root beer" analogy ... Count me as someone who fears the utopia.
- euroderf 3y ago
  > Starfleet looks like a great way to give the ambitious and rambunctious something to do Reminds me of the u/dys/topia depicted in "The 10th Victim" (1965). In a peaceful future, those with bloodlust (or a death wish) can sign up for The Big Hunt. Ten rounds of hunter and hunted. Make it to the tenth and you get a cool million (and hey you're still alive too!). And for gadget freaks there's Ursula Andress's double-barreled bra. And the music, the costumes, the whole production design, it's way way fab. Forerunner to The Running Man (1987), Battle Royale (2000), The Hunger Games (2012), ...
- stevenwoo 3y ago
  It’s not resolved but Dennis Taylor’s Bobiverse series has a post scarcity faction that wants to enact the prime directive from Star Trek after a few hundred years of space exploration and some not quite Trek like first contact with alien races. The contrast with Star Trek is interesting.

27 points by Hooke 3y ago

I took a philosophy course on utopian literature. My biggest takeaway is that every utopia has some marginalized group for which the society is less than a utopia (more like a dystopia). In Thomas More’s Utopia, this was a literal caste of gold-chained slaves. In the latter half of the course we studied dystopias and it became pretty clear these are two sides of the same coin. The issue with utopias is that they don’t admit a plurality of lifestyles: they force everyone to conform. That, in itself, is dystopian to a lot of people. Real life is messy and people are different. A “proper” utopia for all is always going to be messy and imperfect; a work in progress.

lr4444lr 3y ago
Did you by any chance read Aldous Huxley's "The Island"? The moral is that a utopia where tolerance for plurality is permitted is ideologically incapable of defending itself from external threats.
- m-i-l 3y ago
  > "The moral is that a utopia where tolerance for plurality is permitted is ideologically incapable of defending itself from external threats." See also the Paradox of tolerance[0]: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- pstuart 3y ago
  Perhaps I was too young and naive at the time, but I took "The Island" to be an instruction manual on how to do it right (except for the ending, of course). Here and now, boys!
- nonameiguess 3y ago
  It works reasonably well at the level of the entire planet. Every conceivable lifestyle is acceptable somewhere, and nobody has yet managed to conquer all nations to undo that. Where that doesn't help in practice is relocation is often difficult logistically and emotionally, communities exert a grip on people forcing them to stay, some countries forcibly won't let you leave, and, as far as I know, no country lets you freely enter and stay.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

GeoAtreides 3y ago

No mention of The Culture? I suppose it's not "history" per se, it's quite recent. For interested people, a short description of The Culture, as written by the author, can be found here: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm In short, it's literally "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" and it's viewed by many as a perfect utopia. A few take a dimmer view, in my opinion because it exposes the underlining meaninglessness and purposelessness of the universe. The Culture forms the background for a excellent series of books written by Scottish author Iain M Banks; I fully recommend it.

huytersd 3y ago
There’s nothing particularly gay about it aside from a few instances spread across the series. Why attempt to poison a well that has such a devoted following?
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  That's literally what "the kids" call it. You can look that phrase up.
- GeoAtreides 3y ago
  The Culture doesn't have gendered pronouns and you can change your sex by thinking really hard (really); there's a social expectation that each individual should sire a child and be pregnant with one during their lifetime. Most people in the XXI century would agree that's at least a bit gay :)
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Of course there are pronouns, that’s how everyone is referred to (he, she, him, her etc.). Every book in the series uses them, even for some of the minds. There is an ability for an actual sex change, the genetic changes for which can be kicked of by wanting to change. No expectation whatsoever. That whole sequence is touched on in one book for about 3 pages and this is a series with 12+ books.
- 3y ago

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

Ezra Klein spent 80 minutes or so talking to Ghodsee back in June 2023. As I recall, it was a good conversation. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/opinion/ezra-klein-kristen-ghodsee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/opinion/ezra-klein-kriste... There's a transcript there if you prefer to read.

at_a_remove 3y ago

Every dystopia starts off being someone else's utopia. Even the Federation. Just the existence of interplanetary hybrids (Spock being the basic example) combined with the repression of genetic engineering indicates the existence of a profession which may not be spoken of to make such things happen. (Yes, The Progenitors, they were fun, and the female Changeling to boot, but you still couldn't get easy cross-breeding) The Federation still keeps a lot on lockdown. They're not handing out Class 5 replicators easily, they still ration holodeck usage, and so on. If anything, the Federation has always looked like a society where people are funneled into various professions based on some kind of convenience. Starfleet looks like a great way to give the ambitious and rambunctious something to do while the rest of Earth pushes softly-glowing widgets around. And then there's Quark's "root beer" analogy ... Count me as someone who fears the utopia.

euroderf 3y ago
> Starfleet looks like a great way to give the ambitious and rambunctious something to do Reminds me of the u/dys/topia depicted in "The 10th Victim" (1965). In a peaceful future, those with bloodlust (or a death wish) can sign up for The Big Hunt. Ten rounds of hunter and hunted. Make it to the tenth and you get a cool million (and hey you're still alive too!). And for gadget freaks there's Ursula Andress's double-barreled bra. And the music, the costumes, the whole production design, it's way way fab. Forerunner to The Running Man (1987), Battle Royale (2000), The Hunger Games (2012), ...
stevenwoo 3y ago
It’s not resolved but Dennis Taylor’s Bobiverse series has a post scarcity faction that wants to enact the prime directive from Star Trek after a few hundred years of space exploration and some not quite Trek like first contact with alien races. The contrast with Star Trek is interesting.