4 ms·

Apple doesn't support Vulkan, obviously doesn't support DirectX, and barely supports OpenGL. Metal is a different beast, and the adapter layers are not adequate

by ynx 3y ago

Apple doesn't support Vulkan, obviously doesn't support DirectX, and barely supports OpenGL. Metal is a different beast, and the adapter layers are not adequate. It takes extra effort, and fairly deep and unique knowledge of rendering, shaders, and compilation to support Metal, and even engines which do (Unity, Unreal) face some amount of difficulty in doing so well. Apple's strategy of giving the middle finger to graphics APIs is patched over poorly by their partnership with Unity, and the fact that lower-end games can get away not needing a crazy amount of compatibility...but it's still on Apple to do better.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
There is a robust and widely-used Vulcan → Metal compatibility layer. It hurts performance, and that sucks and is absolutely Apple's fault, but it does mean developers can port games to Mac without worrying about Metal.
- kimixa 3y ago
  It's also a massive PITA trying to debug or profiling performance on it - no native tools work right. While "ok" for porting an existing game as a secondary platform, you don't want to be using it for primary development. And that will be why it will remain (at best) a second class citizen.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    Yes, I want to be very clear GP was in response to the argument "Valve can't port games to macOS because macOS doesn't support cross-platform graphics APIs". Well, no, there is a compatibility layer, performance isn't stellar but if the alternative is your game doesn't run at all, you can take the hit. Apple should not be happy about this outcome. It doesn't help them build some kind of walled garden, it just makes their hardware perform worse. They should add Vulkan support!
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >there is a compatibility layer, performance isn't stellar but if the alternative is your game doesn't run at all, you can take the hit They don't make many games these days, but Valve tends to be a studio that prides itself on performance. It can very much be "this game runs well or we don't use that platform at all" for them, compared to other AAA studios happy to take the PR hit for a quick buck.
      - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        Well, I can't say what motivates them, but Valve has used MoltonVK (the compatibility layer) before.
- Guvante 3y ago
  Releasing a bad port as a AAA studio is a bad idea as everyone focuses on the problems. Apple refusing to update graphics drivers outside of major OS updates doesn't help...
Shekelphile 3y ago
Source 2 already has rendering backends for d3d9, 11, opengl and vulkan. There's no reason why they can't support metal besides a refusal to task someone to it.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Lack of users means lack of budget to pay for the said “someone”. Also, there's no reason why Apple can't support OpenGL properly either, there “no reason besides the refusal to task someone to it”.
  - Shekelphile 3y ago
    > Also, there's no reason why Apple can't support OpenGL properly either, there “no reason besides the refusal to task someone to it”. They do. OpenGL is deprecated, but still supported. If it wasn't supported at all it would not have worked on apple silicon macs.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      Note that I said “supported properly” above. In addition to the very high number of bugs in Apple's implementation, the fact that it is officially deprecated sends a message to anyone wanting to do new development on MacOS “don't invest in OpenGL now as we could pull the rug under your feet” and it's done on purpose to push developers to Metal. So now they can only blame themselves if they're losing games because the developer doesn't want to invest in Metal either.
      - Shekelphile 3y ago
        > In addition to the very high number of bugs in Apple's implementation Many of those 'bugs' remain unfixed to maintain backwards compatibility, not because Apple doesn't want to fix them. > the fact that it is officially deprecated sends a message to anyone wanting to do new development on MacOS “don't invest in OpenGL now as we could pull the rug under your feet” and it's done on purpose to push developers to Metal. As it should be. > So now they can only blame themselves if they're losing games because the developer doesn't want to invest in Metal either. There's nothing to 'invest' in. Metal is by far the simplest low level graphics API out of all I've used and it would not be hard for valve to write a source 2 rendering backend for it (few days/weeks at most for an experienced dev). There's plenty of AAA games being properly ported to apple silicon now and in a year or two there will be many more. Valve intentionally withdrawing themselves from the ecosystem is purely out of spite.
duped 3y ago
The only story I've heard of people supporting Metal is by supporting wgpu. Well and, whatever embarrassing game that Apple will trot out at their developer conferences 2-3 years after it was released and claim Macs are built for gaming.

by ynx 3y ago

Wowfunhappy 3y ago

There is a robust and widely-used Vulcan → Metal compatibility layer. It hurts performance, and that sucks and is absolutely Apple's fault, but it does mean developers can port games to Mac without worrying about Metal.

kimixa 3y ago
It's also a massive PITA trying to debug or profiling performance on it - no native tools work right. While "ok" for porting an existing game as a secondary platform, you don't want to be using it for primary development. And that will be why it will remain (at best) a second class citizen.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  Yes, I want to be very clear GP was in response to the argument "Valve can't port games to macOS because macOS doesn't support cross-platform graphics APIs". Well, no, there is a compatibility layer, performance isn't stellar but if the alternative is your game doesn't run at all, you can take the hit. Apple should not be happy about this outcome. It doesn't help them build some kind of walled garden, it just makes their hardware perform worse. They should add Vulkan support!
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >there is a compatibility layer, performance isn't stellar but if the alternative is your game doesn't run at all, you can take the hit They don't make many games these days, but Valve tends to be a studio that prides itself on performance. It can very much be "this game runs well or we don't use that platform at all" for them, compared to other AAA studios happy to take the PR hit for a quick buck.
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      Well, I can't say what motivates them, but Valve has used MoltonVK (the compatibility layer) before.
Guvante 3y ago
Releasing a bad port as a AAA studio is a bad idea as everyone focuses on the problems. Apple refusing to update graphics drivers outside of major OS updates doesn't help...

Shekelphile 3y ago

Source 2 already has rendering backends for d3d9, 11, opengl and vulkan. There's no reason why they can't support metal besides a refusal to task someone to it.

littlestymaar 3y ago
Lack of users means lack of budget to pay for the said “someone”. Also, there's no reason why Apple can't support OpenGL properly either, there “no reason besides the refusal to task someone to it”.
- Shekelphile 3y ago
  > Also, there's no reason why Apple can't support OpenGL properly either, there “no reason besides the refusal to task someone to it”. They do. OpenGL is deprecated, but still supported. If it wasn't supported at all it would not have worked on apple silicon macs.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Note that I said “supported properly” above. In addition to the very high number of bugs in Apple's implementation, the fact that it is officially deprecated sends a message to anyone wanting to do new development on MacOS “don't invest in OpenGL now as we could pull the rug under your feet” and it's done on purpose to push developers to Metal. So now they can only blame themselves if they're losing games because the developer doesn't want to invest in Metal either.
    - Shekelphile 3y ago
      > In addition to the very high number of bugs in Apple's implementation Many of those 'bugs' remain unfixed to maintain backwards compatibility, not because Apple doesn't want to fix them. > the fact that it is officially deprecated sends a message to anyone wanting to do new development on MacOS “don't invest in OpenGL now as we could pull the rug under your feet” and it's done on purpose to push developers to Metal. As it should be. > So now they can only blame themselves if they're losing games because the developer doesn't want to invest in Metal either. There's nothing to 'invest' in. Metal is by far the simplest low level graphics API out of all I've used and it would not be hard for valve to write a source 2 rendering backend for it (few days/weeks at most for an experienced dev). There's plenty of AAA games being properly ported to apple silicon now and in a year or two there will be many more. Valve intentionally withdrawing themselves from the ecosystem is purely out of spite.

duped 3y ago

The only story I've heard of people supporting Metal is by supporting wgpu. Well and, whatever embarrassing game that Apple will trot out at their developer conferences 2-3 years after it was released and claim Macs are built for gaming.