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I didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge. They oil companies own a lot of infrastructure for moving fuel around. They cannot use this infrastructure to mo

by Clent 3y ago

I didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge. They oil companies own a lot of infrastructure for moving fuel around. They cannot use this infrastructure to move electricity but they can use the existing infrastructure to move hydrogen around.

malchow 3y ago
The oil companies don't own many pipelines. Pipeline companies own those. And pipeline companies are eager to do business with hydrogen companies. The fight here is over whether natural gas-made hydrogen (SMR) is an interesting fuel at all. I think the numbers say no, while solar-made hydrogen is in fact extremely interesting.
Pxtl 3y ago
More to the point, currently only 1% (edit: some articles I've seen put it less than 0.1%[1]) of hydrogen is "green". The rest is mostly made out of natural gas, a process that releases just as much CO2 as if you'd burned it. H2 isn't a way to save the Earth, it's a way to save the Natural Gas industry. [1]https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/22/0-03-of-hydrogen-is-green-hydrogen/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/22/0-03-of-hydrogen-is-gre...
- b112 3y ago
  Ridiculous. You're conflating source and fuel. H2 can be produced in large quantities from green power. Part of the problem is, some people see everything as non-green. Dams? Oh, carbon and cement! Nuclear? Oh risk. Windmills? Oh birds. Solar? Short cell lift and manufacturing waste. So let's start with the snae assumption that a dam is green. Now you want to get power to cars. Guess what. You can make h2 on site, at night (low power demand), then send it anywhere using existing gaslines. And yes, you can. No, h2 isn't hard to store, hard to move. Frankly, it is the oil industry flooding green forums with false crap about h2, because they know h2 is the only complete threat to them Batteries, with their wonderful waste, slow charge time, massive weight, and vast dangers in a accident, won't be enough to break oil's back. We need h2 for that, and that's why all this bullwark is spewed at h2. A tech demonstrated as workijg quite well in buses, cars, and spaceships for 50+ years.
  - Pxtl 3y ago
    > Dedicated hydrogen production today is primarily based on fossil fuel technologies, with around a sixth of the global hydrogen supply coming from “by-product” hydrogen, mainly in the petrochemical industry. In 2022, 70% of the energy requirement for dedicated hydrogen production was met with natural gas and around 30% with coal (mostly used in China, which alone accounted for 90% of global coal consumption for hydrogen production). https://www.iea.org/energy-system/low-emission-fuels/hydrogen https://www.iea.org/energy-system/low-emission-fuels/hydroge...
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    "Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more efficient just to send that 55kWh to a waiting plugged in EV using existing power lines. As for "slow charge", you're behind on tech. The current Hyundai/Kia platform supports 800V charging, meaning it can take in power at 350kW. It'll take under 10 minutes to fill it from 0 to ~80%.
    - b112 3y ago
      Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. It works just fine. The British did studies in the early 2000s, injecting h2 into Ng lines, and separating it back out at the other end with mebranes. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more efficient just to send that 55kWh to a waiting plugged in EV using existing power lines. Love how you ignored the power loss in transit, the power loss in charging, especially with fast charging, and didn't mention how inefficient batteries are as a comparison. As for "slow charge", you're behind on tech. The current Hyundai/Kia platform supports 800V charging, meaning it can take in power at 350kW. It'll take under 10 minutes to fill it from 0 to ~80%. We'll only need about 100 trillion dollars in new power lines, transfer stations, and on demand power generation, to enable people to charge like that. Far better to build power plants, and when off peak load, generate h2 and ship through our existing pipelines.
donatj 3y ago
I mean it does kind of seem silly just to throw billions of dollars of infrastructure to the wayside that could be repurposed.
keep_reading 3y ago
Except the hydrogen will destroy the pipes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

by Clent 3y ago

malchow 3y ago

The oil companies don't own many pipelines. Pipeline companies own those. And pipeline companies are eager to do business with hydrogen companies. The fight here is over whether natural gas-made hydrogen (SMR) is an interesting fuel at all. I think the numbers say no, while solar-made hydrogen is in fact extremely interesting.

Pxtl 3y ago

More to the point, currently only 1% (edit: some articles I've seen put it less than 0.1%[1]) of hydrogen is "green". The rest is mostly made out of natural gas, a process that releases just as much CO2 as if you'd burned it. H2 isn't a way to save the Earth, it's a way to save the Natural Gas industry. [1]https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/22/0-03-of-hydrogen-is-green-hydrogen/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/22/0-03-of-hydrogen-is-gre...

b112 3y ago
Ridiculous. You're conflating source and fuel. H2 can be produced in large quantities from green power. Part of the problem is, some people see everything as non-green. Dams? Oh, carbon and cement! Nuclear? Oh risk. Windmills? Oh birds. Solar? Short cell lift and manufacturing waste. So let's start with the snae assumption that a dam is green. Now you want to get power to cars. Guess what. You can make h2 on site, at night (low power demand), then send it anywhere using existing gaslines. And yes, you can. No, h2 isn't hard to store, hard to move. Frankly, it is the oil industry flooding green forums with false crap about h2, because they know h2 is the only complete threat to them Batteries, with their wonderful waste, slow charge time, massive weight, and vast dangers in a accident, won't be enough to break oil's back. We need h2 for that, and that's why all this bullwark is spewed at h2. A tech demonstrated as workijg quite well in buses, cars, and spaceships for 50+ years.
- Pxtl 3y ago
  > Dedicated hydrogen production today is primarily based on fossil fuel technologies, with around a sixth of the global hydrogen supply coming from “by-product” hydrogen, mainly in the petrochemical industry. In 2022, 70% of the energy requirement for dedicated hydrogen production was met with natural gas and around 30% with coal (mostly used in China, which alone accounted for 90% of global coal consumption for hydrogen production). https://www.iea.org/energy-system/low-emission-fuels/hydrogen https://www.iea.org/energy-system/low-emission-fuels/hydroge...
- theshrike79 3y ago
  "Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more efficient just to send that 55kWh to a waiting plugged in EV using existing power lines. As for "slow charge", you're behind on tech. The current Hyundai/Kia platform supports 800V charging, meaning it can take in power at 350kW. It'll take under 10 minutes to fill it from 0 to ~80%.
  - b112 3y ago
    Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. It works just fine. The British did studies in the early 2000s, injecting h2 into Ng lines, and separating it back out at the other end with mebranes. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more efficient just to send that 55kWh to a waiting plugged in EV using existing power lines. Love how you ignored the power loss in transit, the power loss in charging, especially with fast charging, and didn't mention how inefficient batteries are as a comparison. As for "slow charge", you're behind on tech. The current Hyundai/Kia platform supports 800V charging, meaning it can take in power at 350kW. It'll take under 10 minutes to fill it from 0 to ~80%. We'll only need about 100 trillion dollars in new power lines, transfer stations, and on demand power generation, to enable people to charge like that. Far better to build power plants, and when off peak load, generate h2 and ship through our existing pipelines.

donatj 3y ago

I mean it does kind of seem silly just to throw billions of dollars of infrastructure to the wayside that could be repurposed.

keep_reading 3y ago

Except the hydrogen will destroy the pipes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement