4 ms·

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the

by asdff 3y ago

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in comparison to the fuel station network.

throwaway5959 3y ago
Have you ever read up on what storing hydrogen entails? Both at the station and in the cars? The tanks are totally different beasts than gasoline.
- tekknik 3y ago
  As is propane, but we use that currently with no issues.
smileysteve 3y ago
Lol at all; Hydrogen can't easily be transported in current pipelines; Can't be transported in current trucks, and can't be stored in current gas station tanks. And if the gas station doesn't maintain its hoses, nozzles, or seals; you don't wind up with a slight smell, a carcinogenic irritation -- you experience frostbite to you hand immediately.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > you don't wind up with a slight smell, a carcinogenic irritation -- you experience frostbite to you hand immediately. If you're lucky. If you're unlucky the first you realize there is a leak is when it ignites. Fortunately it is harder to make it explode than gasoline vapors but it also escapes far more readily than gasoline does.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  Though the maintenance issue can be solved with a nitrogen pressure test before - the equivalent of electrical connectors verifying the connection digitally before sending the amps.
rootusrootus 3y ago
> All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations "All it takes" is doing very heavy lifting in that sentence. There's a good reason that hydrogen fueling stations are basically non-existent aside from a few in California. Distribution and fueling is quite complicated compared to conventional liquid fuels.
- yread 3y ago
  there are 86 now in Germany. https://h2.live/en/ https://h2.live/en/ basically most of the main highways are covered
jacquesm 3y ago
Not even close. It requires a whole new delivery network, trucks, pipelines need to be re-sleeved and tons of safety measures. Switching to hydrogen from diesel or gasoline is a non-trivial exercise. And large scale storage is yet another problem. That's hard enough with LNG, LPG, diesel and gasoline, with hydrogen it is much more complex and carries more risk.
- tekknik 3y ago
  Large scale generation of power to support a 100% EV fleet is also an issue. This is why current charging stations are having issues.
beachy 3y ago
> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all. After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having to wait and jostle for a spot with the filler hoses on the correct side for my vehicle. Dodgy characters milling around. Unable to use cellphone and take calls. Possibility of being involved in holdups/antisocial behaviour.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  > Unable to use cellphone and take calls. Why are you unable to use your cellphone?
  - zo1 3y ago
    They're apparently "banned" or "dangerous" at fuel filling stations. Whether that's actually true is a different matter, but all the stations I've been to have had prominent "cellphones not allowed" signs displayed.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      What country is this? I've never seen this in the US.
      - beachy 3y ago
        New Zealand. Seems to be a blanket rule here.
      - zo1 3y ago
        South Africa, but UK also had it if I'm not mistaken.
- serial_dev 3y ago
  Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break. With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h). (I don't have a car, and I'm open minded about EVs, just honestly wondering)
alerighi 3y ago
I have a diesel car. Every 3 weeks I have to fill my tank. This wastes me around 5/10 minutes, depending if the gas station is full of person that want to fill their tank. And this only thanks to the fact that I've one of the gas station with the cheapest price of my city 50 meters from where I work. Otherwise I would need to spend time (and gas) to get to the station with the cheapest price, because paying 2 euros for a liter of gas is not something I like to do. With an electric car I can get home at evening, park my car and connect a plug, exactly as I connect my phone to the charger before going to bed. Time wasted? Probably less than a minute every couple of days. Also, I pay it in my electricity bill, the price of electricity doesn't go as high as the price of gas. Also... it's impossible to distinguish between the electricity used to charge a car than the one used for domestic purpose. This means that the government cannot add taxes on electricity used in vehicles, as it does with gas. Finally there is the possibility to install solar and produce the electricity myself. > All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations Easy? We have natural gas cars since decades. Only recently (last 10 years) you find a sufficient number of stations that serve you natural gas. Still for nonsense rules in my country you can't fill your natural gas car by yourself but it has to be done by an operator, so good luck filling it in the weekend or at night. I imagine the same rules would apply for hydrogen. Now, after decades of natural gas cars, they are mostly usable (my parents have one). Inconvenient, since you maybe have to drive 10km to get to a station, and you have the same range than an electric car (350km more or less). Will hydrogen be that better? I don't think so. While all of this happens, electric car chargers are starting to appear everywhere. You go to a supermarket, there is a charger, you stop to eat on the highway, there is a charger, or more of them really, in the cities there are plenty of them (plus while the car is charging you don't pay for parking!). It's nonsense to this day to not consider buying an electric car if buying a new car to me! I keep my diesel car since I already have it, it has more than 10 years, and works fairly well, and I don't like changing things that works, but when I will change it, I will buy an electric for sure.
- zolbrek 3y ago
  >This means that the government cannot add taxes on electricity used in vehicles, as it does with gas. You don't think you'll be paying a significant electricity tax once ICE cars are fully phased out? Also, I don't know what you drive but my diesel has quite a bit more range than 350 km. Yours must be quite the guzzler.

by asdff 3y ago

throwaway5959 3y ago

Have you ever read up on what storing hydrogen entails? Both at the station and in the cars? The tanks are totally different beasts than gasoline.

tekknik 3y ago
As is propane, but we use that currently with no issues.

smileysteve 3y ago

Lol at all; Hydrogen can't easily be transported in current pipelines; Can't be transported in current trucks, and can't be stored in current gas station tanks. And if the gas station doesn't maintain its hoses, nozzles, or seals; you don't wind up with a slight smell, a carcinogenic irritation -- you experience frostbite to you hand immediately.

jacquesm 3y ago
> you don't wind up with a slight smell, a carcinogenic irritation -- you experience frostbite to you hand immediately. If you're lucky. If you're unlucky the first you realize there is a leak is when it ignites. Fortunately it is harder to make it explode than gasoline vapors but it also escapes far more readily than gasoline does.
smileysteve 3y ago
Though the maintenance issue can be solved with a nitrogen pressure test before - the equivalent of electrical connectors verifying the connection digitally before sending the amps.

rootusrootus 3y ago

> All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations "All it takes" is doing very heavy lifting in that sentence. There's a good reason that hydrogen fueling stations are basically non-existent aside from a few in California. Distribution and fueling is quite complicated compared to conventional liquid fuels.

yread 3y ago
there are 86 now in Germany. https://h2.live/en/ https://h2.live/en/ basically most of the main highways are covered

jacquesm 3y ago

Not even close. It requires a whole new delivery network, trucks, pipelines need to be re-sleeved and tons of safety measures. Switching to hydrogen from diesel or gasoline is a non-trivial exercise. And large scale storage is yet another problem. That's hard enough with LNG, LPG, diesel and gasoline, with hydrogen it is much more complex and carries more risk.

tekknik 3y ago
Large scale generation of power to support a 100% EV fleet is also an issue. This is why current charging stations are having issues.

beachy 3y ago

> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all. After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having to wait and jostle for a spot with the filler hoses on the correct side for my vehicle. Dodgy characters milling around. Unable to use cellphone and take calls. Possibility of being involved in holdups/antisocial behaviour.

p1mrx 3y ago
> Unable to use cellphone and take calls. Why are you unable to use your cellphone?
- zo1 3y ago
  They're apparently "banned" or "dangerous" at fuel filling stations. Whether that's actually true is a different matter, but all the stations I've been to have had prominent "cellphones not allowed" signs displayed.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    What country is this? I've never seen this in the US.
    - beachy 3y ago
      New Zealand. Seems to be a blanket rule here.
    - zo1 3y ago
      South Africa, but UK also had it if I'm not mistaken.
serial_dev 3y ago
Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break. With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h). (I don't have a car, and I'm open minded about EVs, just honestly wondering)

alerighi 3y ago

I have a diesel car. Every 3 weeks I have to fill my tank. This wastes me around 5/10 minutes, depending if the gas station is full of person that want to fill their tank. And this only thanks to the fact that I've one of the gas station with the cheapest price of my city 50 meters from where I work. Otherwise I would need to spend time (and gas) to get to the station with the cheapest price, because paying 2 euros for a liter of gas is not something I like to do. With an electric car I can get home at evening, park my car and connect a plug, exactly as I connect my phone to the charger before going to bed. Time wasted? Probably less than a minute every couple of days. Also, I pay it in my electricity bill, the price of electricity doesn't go as high as the price of gas. Also... it's impossible to distinguish between the electricity used to charge a car than the one used for domestic purpose. This means that the government cannot add taxes on electricity used in vehicles, as it does with gas. Finally there is the possibility to install solar and produce the electricity myself. > All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations Easy? We have natural gas cars since decades. Only recently (last 10 years) you find a sufficient number of stations that serve you natural gas. Still for nonsense rules in my country you can't fill your natural gas car by yourself but it has to be done by an operator, so good luck filling it in the weekend or at night. I imagine the same rules would apply for hydrogen. Now, after decades of natural gas cars, they are mostly usable (my parents have one). Inconvenient, since you maybe have to drive 10km to get to a station, and you have the same range than an electric car (350km more or less). Will hydrogen be that better? I don't think so. While all of this happens, electric car chargers are starting to appear everywhere. You go to a supermarket, there is a charger, you stop to eat on the highway, there is a charger, or more of them really, in the cities there are plenty of them (plus while the car is charging you don't pay for parking!). It's nonsense to this day to not consider buying an electric car if buying a new car to me! I keep my diesel car since I already have it, it has more than 10 years, and works fairly well, and I don't like changing things that works, but when I will change it, I will buy an electric for sure.

zolbrek 3y ago
>This means that the government cannot add taxes on electricity used in vehicles, as it does with gas. You don't think you'll be paying a significant electricity tax once ICE cars are fully phased out? Also, I don't know what you drive but my diesel has quite a bit more range than 350 km. Yours must be quite the guzzler.