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But they are not giving it to everyone, just to homeless people. That does not warrant the "Universal" part of the name. EDIT: I think I misread the whole thin

But they are not giving it to everyone, just to homeless people. That does not warrant the "Universal" part of the name. EDIT: I think I misread the whole thing, it really does not say "Universal" anywhere :) Anyway, I think someone, soon will try to use this project as an argument in favor of UBI, which is ridiculous.

ncallaway 3y ago
Right, which is why it doesn't...have "Universal" in the name, and is referred to as a "Basic Income Project"
- pdonis 3y ago
  Right, which is why claiming that this is a study of "universal basic income", as the GGP claimed, is wrong.
meheleventyone 3y ago
Exactly which is why the complaint the OP is making makes no sense. It’s Denver’s Basic Income Project and explicit in who gets it so complaining that it’s not universal is silly.
suprjami 3y ago
That's probably why it's called "Basic Income Project" and not "Universal Basic Income Project".
itishappy 3y ago
> I think someone, soon will try to use this project as an argument in favor of UBI, which is ridiculous. Why's that ridiculous? Testing a small scale trial on the people most likely to be effected by a larger scale program seems pretty reasonable to me.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  But the UBI works completely different at small and large scales. When you test it at small scale it seems to be working exactly as expected. But when you try to introduce it globally (I mean, for the whole country), then it suddenly starts affecting economy as whole, and the only result you get is inflation, and no one is better of with UBI compared to their previous situation. When the news breaks that everyone will be getting free money the natural reaction of all the sellers and service providers is to raise prices. I mean, I know UBI haven't been tried at whole country scale, but the populist government in my country came pretty close, trying to bribe people with things like social security payments for parents (you get paid a pretty penny monthly for each child you have), or giving extra pension raises to retired people - basically giving away free money to everyone. And guess what? Inflation in my country peaked at 19% in February, luckily it fell down to like 8% in September.
  - M95D 3y ago
    That inflation is temporary. Most countries in Europe give money to parents and also have decent retirement payments. Inflation is not a problem, except for other external factors (Ukraine war, COVID measures).
    - Detrytus 3y ago
      That inflation is indeed temporary - it fulfills its role once the prices reach the level when UBI becomes irrelevant. Imagine a country where average income is 2000 USD per month. Now, you give everyone UBI of 1000 USD per month, so the prices keep rising until cumulative inflation reaches 50% - now 3000 USD buys you exactly the same standard of living as 2000 USD used to do before. So, inflation stops, but no one's life is better after UBI than it was before. And of course if the government decides to raise UBI from 1000 USD to 2000 USD then the next wave of inflation follows, cancelling any gains once again.
      - itishappy 3y ago
        > So, inflation stops, but no one's life is better after UBI than it was before. This does not follow. Many people may find they have the same quality of life as before. This isn't a failure. The relative significance of $2k is much greater to someone making <$2k (>2x increase) than someone making >$2k (<2x increase). It seems like in terms of influencing behavior, the greater effect would be felt by the poor, and there's more poor.
- pdonis 3y ago
  > Why's that ridiculous? Because drawing conclusions about what happens if you guarantee income to everyone, based on studying a project that only guaranteed income to homeless people, is ridiculous. > a small scale trial Is not what this is. You can't have a "small scale trial" of universal basic income. That's the whole point.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    No, what's ridiculous is claiming that conclusions from this study cannot apply to UBI. Nobody is claiming the study models inflation, it's about homelessness. Basic Income is part of Universal Basic Income, and I think it's pretty reasonable to expect some conclusions apply to each.
    - pdonis 3y ago
      > Nobody is claiming the study models inflation, it's about homelessness. Since most people are not homeless, I have no idea why you think this makes it reasonable to extrapolate anything from this study to the case of actual UBI. > Basic Income is part of Universal Basic Income Not if it's only given to the homeless.
      - itishappy 3y ago
        > Since most people are not homeless, I have no idea why you think this makes it reasonable to extrapolate anything from this study to the case of actual UBI. Some people are. They were given a basic income. Under UBI they would also be given a basic income. It seems crazy to me to suggest these are entirely uncorrelated. > Not if it's only given to the homeless. So I'll ask again, how does Basic Income for the middle class invalidate Basic Income for the destitute?
        pdonis 3y ago
        > They were given a basic income. Under UBI they would also be given a basic income. It seems crazy to me to suggest these are entirely uncorrelated. I can't tell if you are trolling or are actually confused. The issue is not that the homeless people were given a basic income. The issue is that everybody who wasn't homeless was not given a basic income. So only a small fraction of people were given a basic income in this study. That is what makes it invalid as a study of universal basic income. > how does Basic Income for the middle class invalidate Basic Income for the destitute? This question is irrelevant since middle class people were not given a basic income in this study. Do a study where middle class people are given a basic income and then we can talk.
- mhb 3y ago
  If you offer free plate glass to all store owners, the stores with already broken windows will have a large benefit. What happens to the glass you gave to stores that don't need the glass? Do they sell it on eBay? Store it somewhere?

ncallaway 3y ago

Right, which is why it doesn't...have "Universal" in the name, and is referred to as a "Basic Income Project"

pdonis 3y ago
Right, which is why claiming that this is a study of "universal basic income", as the GGP claimed, is wrong.

meheleventyone 3y ago

Exactly which is why the complaint the OP is making makes no sense. It’s Denver’s Basic Income Project and explicit in who gets it so complaining that it’s not universal is silly.

suprjami 3y ago

That's probably why it's called "Basic Income Project" and not "Universal Basic Income Project".

itishappy 3y ago

> I think someone, soon will try to use this project as an argument in favor of UBI, which is ridiculous. Why's that ridiculous? Testing a small scale trial on the people most likely to be effected by a larger scale program seems pretty reasonable to me.

Detrytus 3y ago
But the UBI works completely different at small and large scales. When you test it at small scale it seems to be working exactly as expected. But when you try to introduce it globally (I mean, for the whole country), then it suddenly starts affecting economy as whole, and the only result you get is inflation, and no one is better of with UBI compared to their previous situation. When the news breaks that everyone will be getting free money the natural reaction of all the sellers and service providers is to raise prices. I mean, I know UBI haven't been tried at whole country scale, but the populist government in my country came pretty close, trying to bribe people with things like social security payments for parents (you get paid a pretty penny monthly for each child you have), or giving extra pension raises to retired people - basically giving away free money to everyone. And guess what? Inflation in my country peaked at 19% in February, luckily it fell down to like 8% in September.
- M95D 3y ago
  That inflation is temporary. Most countries in Europe give money to parents and also have decent retirement payments. Inflation is not a problem, except for other external factors (Ukraine war, COVID measures).
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    That inflation is indeed temporary - it fulfills its role once the prices reach the level when UBI becomes irrelevant. Imagine a country where average income is 2000 USD per month. Now, you give everyone UBI of 1000 USD per month, so the prices keep rising until cumulative inflation reaches 50% - now 3000 USD buys you exactly the same standard of living as 2000 USD used to do before. So, inflation stops, but no one's life is better after UBI than it was before. And of course if the government decides to raise UBI from 1000 USD to 2000 USD then the next wave of inflation follows, cancelling any gains once again.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      > So, inflation stops, but no one's life is better after UBI than it was before. This does not follow. Many people may find they have the same quality of life as before. This isn't a failure. The relative significance of $2k is much greater to someone making <$2k (>2x increase) than someone making >$2k (<2x increase). It seems like in terms of influencing behavior, the greater effect would be felt by the poor, and there's more poor.
pdonis 3y ago
> Why's that ridiculous? Because drawing conclusions about what happens if you guarantee income to everyone, based on studying a project that only guaranteed income to homeless people, is ridiculous. > a small scale trial Is not what this is. You can't have a "small scale trial" of universal basic income. That's the whole point.
- itishappy 3y ago
  No, what's ridiculous is claiming that conclusions from this study cannot apply to UBI. Nobody is claiming the study models inflation, it's about homelessness. Basic Income is part of Universal Basic Income, and I think it's pretty reasonable to expect some conclusions apply to each.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > Nobody is claiming the study models inflation, it's about homelessness. Since most people are not homeless, I have no idea why you think this makes it reasonable to extrapolate anything from this study to the case of actual UBI. > Basic Income is part of Universal Basic Income Not if it's only given to the homeless.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      > Since most people are not homeless, I have no idea why you think this makes it reasonable to extrapolate anything from this study to the case of actual UBI. Some people are. They were given a basic income. Under UBI they would also be given a basic income. It seems crazy to me to suggest these are entirely uncorrelated. > Not if it's only given to the homeless. So I'll ask again, how does Basic Income for the middle class invalidate Basic Income for the destitute?
      - pdonis 3y ago
        > They were given a basic income. Under UBI they would also be given a basic income. It seems crazy to me to suggest these are entirely uncorrelated. I can't tell if you are trolling or are actually confused. The issue is not that the homeless people were given a basic income. The issue is that everybody who wasn't homeless was not given a basic income. So only a small fraction of people were given a basic income in this study. That is what makes it invalid as a study of universal basic income. > how does Basic Income for the middle class invalidate Basic Income for the destitute? This question is irrelevant since middle class people were not given a basic income in this study. Do a study where middle class people are given a basic income and then we can talk.
mhb 3y ago
If you offer free plate glass to all store owners, the stores with already broken windows will have a large benefit. What happens to the glass you gave to stores that don't need the glass? Do they sell it on eBay? Store it somewhere?