6 ms·

That's... not fine. As great as WINE can be, it's not native. Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. And who do

by Alupis 3y ago

That's... not fine. As great as WINE can be, it's not native. Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple...

charcircuit 3y ago
Games are usually not native. They usually create a window and render to the entire viewport insted of using the OS's standard UI framework.
- xcv123 3y ago
  UI framework? What about everything else such as file system, networking, audio, controller IO, threads, graphics API, etc?
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Wine wraps those APIs. An abstraction over the filesystem is not that different whether it is in the game engine or in wine.
    - xcv123 3y ago
      No shit. That's my point. You said "games are usually not native". Which games? Not sure what you mean by that. Never mind.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        >Which games? As I said the vast majority of games. For example Minecraft is not a native Windows application in any way. It just creates a window and then renders the entire contents of the window itself instead of using win32 to make an interface.
        xcv123 3y ago
        No, only a tiny minority of PC games run on the JVM. The vast majority are native and not running on any kind of VM. Even with the Unity engine the games are natively compiled.
        xcv123 3y ago
        If the vast majority of games were on the JVM, then the vast majority of games would run on Linux or Mac without Proton or Wine, wouldn't they? That is not the case. Minecraft is probably the only major game that runs on the JVM.
        charcircuit 3y ago
        I didn't intend to bring up the JVM. Minecraft Bedrock edition is written in C++ and renders the entire window contents and even has its own UI framework that it uses.
        xcv123 3y ago
        There's way more to it than GUI libraries. That is a native Windows application calling Windows APIs. You can't run that Windows executable on Linux without Wine/Proton. Even a console application (no GUI) depends on operating system APIs.
        charcircuit 3y ago
        >You can't run that Windows executable on Linux without Wine/Proton. That's like saying you can't run Firefox without freetype. Requiring a dependency doesn't make you no longer native. >Even a console application (no GUI) depends on operating system APIs. But the same API can be handled by different operating systems or libraries.
        xcv123 3y ago
        > That's like saying you can't run Firefox without freetype. Requiring a dependency doesn't make you no longer native. At this point you're just trolling. Take notepad.exe and try to run it on Linux. It wont run because its Windows native. That's a native application. Same as 99% of games that aren't JVM based.
astrange 3y ago
> Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) > And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple... Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; as a company they're famously unwilling to actually make games. See gaben's allergy to the number 3.
- Alupis 3y ago
  > How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. > (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) By making their OS easy to target by game makers. There's no good excuse - Apple has access to the same graphics pipelines as everyone else. XPlat game engines have boiled it down to mostly a checkbox these days... so where's OSX? Apple has a lot of work to do before that's a reality. > Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; You can't be serious, are you? Valve's titles are among the most popular games in the history of games. They may make most of their money through Steam, but to say Valve doesn't make games is ridiculous. That wasn't even the point - Apple users will blame the actual studios/developers for not supporting OSX when the blame lies at Apple's feet. Billions in annual profit, zero f's given about gaming on their platform. It's a choice - and one Apple users need to comprehend. Apple doesn't care.
  - robertoandred 3y ago
    You think cross-platform game engines don't support Metal? They do, and have for a decade.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      Who else supports Metal? Oh, that's right - only Apple. There's more to game support than just graphics API. Apple chooses to make game support on OSX hard - and shocker... you don't get games supporting OSX. Who can we blame? Apple... Just like Apple chooses to make Linux kernel support hard on M1/M2 and leaves it entirely up to volunteers to make it work. Who do you blame? The Kernel developers or Apple?

by Alupis 3y ago

charcircuit 3y ago

Games are usually not native. They usually create a window and render to the entire viewport insted of using the OS's standard UI framework.

xcv123 3y ago
UI framework? What about everything else such as file system, networking, audio, controller IO, threads, graphics API, etc?
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Wine wraps those APIs. An abstraction over the filesystem is not that different whether it is in the game engine or in wine.
  - xcv123 3y ago
    No shit. That's my point. You said "games are usually not native". Which games? Not sure what you mean by that. Never mind.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      >Which games? As I said the vast majority of games. For example Minecraft is not a native Windows application in any way. It just creates a window and then renders the entire contents of the window itself instead of using win32 to make an interface.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        No, only a tiny minority of PC games run on the JVM. The vast majority are native and not running on any kind of VM. Even with the Unity engine the games are natively compiled.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        If the vast majority of games were on the JVM, then the vast majority of games would run on Linux or Mac without Proton or Wine, wouldn't they? That is not the case. Minecraft is probably the only major game that runs on the JVM.
        charcircuit 3y ago
        I didn't intend to bring up the JVM. Minecraft Bedrock edition is written in C++ and renders the entire window contents and even has its own UI framework that it uses.
        xcv123 3y ago
        There's way more to it than GUI libraries. That is a native Windows application calling Windows APIs. You can't run that Windows executable on Linux without Wine/Proton. Even a console application (no GUI) depends on operating system APIs.
        charcircuit 3y ago
        >You can't run that Windows executable on Linux without Wine/Proton. That's like saying you can't run Firefox without freetype. Requiring a dependency doesn't make you no longer native. >Even a console application (no GUI) depends on operating system APIs. But the same API can be handled by different operating systems or libraries.
        xcv123 3y ago
        > That's like saying you can't run Firefox without freetype. Requiring a dependency doesn't make you no longer native. At this point you're just trolling. Take notepad.exe and try to run it on Linux. It wont run because its Windows native. That's a native application. Same as 99% of games that aren't JVM based.

astrange 3y ago

> Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) > And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple... Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; as a company they're famously unwilling to actually make games. See gaben's allergy to the number 3.

Alupis 3y ago
> How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. > (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) By making their OS easy to target by game makers. There's no good excuse - Apple has access to the same graphics pipelines as everyone else. XPlat game engines have boiled it down to mostly a checkbox these days... so where's OSX? Apple has a lot of work to do before that's a reality. > Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; You can't be serious, are you? Valve's titles are among the most popular games in the history of games. They may make most of their money through Steam, but to say Valve doesn't make games is ridiculous. That wasn't even the point - Apple users will blame the actual studios/developers for not supporting OSX when the blame lies at Apple's feet. Billions in annual profit, zero f's given about gaming on their platform. It's a choice - and one Apple users need to comprehend. Apple doesn't care.
- robertoandred 3y ago
  You think cross-platform game engines don't support Metal? They do, and have for a decade.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Who else supports Metal? Oh, that's right - only Apple. There's more to game support than just graphics API. Apple chooses to make game support on OSX hard - and shocker... you don't get games supporting OSX. Who can we blame? Apple... Just like Apple chooses to make Linux kernel support hard on M1/M2 and leaves it entirely up to volunteers to make it work. Who do you blame? The Kernel developers or Apple?