4 ms·

While I believe this is a step in the right direction. I have read too many horror stories of people who were locked out of their Google and iCloud accounts wit

While I believe this is a step in the right direction. I have read too many horror stories of people who were locked out of their Google and iCloud accounts with no real possibility of getting back in. I don’t think I am alone in thinking I am on borrowed time. Someday, probably due to my own fault I will be locked out of Google and my digital life will be over. If a private company can offer a similar login method like login.gov and let me talk to a real person when I am locked out like the USPS, I will be screaming shut up and take my money.

skybrian 3y ago
Imagining pessimistic scenarios is useful if it spurs action. In this case, appropriate action would be to learn about Google's account recovery options and take advantage of them. Make sure you have multiple, independent ways of logging in. (For example, by printing out backup codes and keeping them with your important papers.) But even this can't protect against getting locked out of your Google account due to some Google policy change, so ideally we'd rehearse how to get by without it.
hedora 3y ago
I haven’t heard of people getting locked out of iCloud. Losing all your devices nukes E2EE stuff, but that’s not much stuff by default. In particular, photos, device backups and messages are recoverable. I thought the Apple Store would check your driver’s license or whatever and reset your password, recovering whatever is protected by the escrow keys. I know Google loses accounts all the time, mostly thanks to “surprise 2FA” combined with zero tech support. I’d believe Apple screws this up too, but I haven’t heard any anecdotes. Care to share a link to examples?
verytrivial 3y ago
Disaster recovery. This is 100% my biggest worry with 2FA/MFA. I also think this is one of the reasons stuff like PGP never took off (don't @ me regarding perfect forward secrecy): the problem has always been managing some little, precious thing and the ramifications of what happens if it put beyond use or is used by some bad actor.
- brundolf 3y ago
  I feel okay with Authy because I've got synced across multiple devices; one I bring out into the world and one I usually don't. I would be pretty nervous if I didn't have a second eligible device though
- Whatever13 3y ago
  I'm from Brazil, where as is known many robberies and assaults happen on the street, and ever since the whole process of putting essential life services into smartphones started, many people are adopting a scheme of having 2 smartphones (if not 3 or 4 for other reasons! ) : 1) The House smartphone → it is where you install everything truly vital, like the main bank app (started mainly because of this), 2FA apps like authy google microsoft equivalents, passwords, streaming apps (to do their 2FA), etc. This phone NEVER NEVER leaves the house, except ONCE if the bank app requires on location authentication of the phone for the bank app to function, which is common practice with traditional banks. 2) The Street Smartphone → you essentially create a ''street bank account'', deposit sufficient money for day-to-day transactions for some days or weeks, install the app, and only keep this app installed for any money use (many people also avoid even using the same bank as the main bank app, as the main bank usually is a traditional bank with physical locations to get help - and has tons of personal information stored - and the street bank usually is a fin-tech bank that people do not really trust like old banks, either economically or for security, but it has less personal data anyways). It also has the essencial social media like Whatsapp, instagram, some password manager like bitwarden or the apple-google cloud, and 2FA (the ones who actually use it) is avoided in this device. 3) the thief smartphone → many people like to take some old phone around to give to a thief if the need arises, this way even the street smartphone is saved. Might not work if the thief smartphone is too old or clearly broken though. 4) the work smartphone → the only mostly chill 2nd smartphone on the list, useful to keep private life separate from the professional life, and also is useful to avoid the boss sneaking into the worker's private life and devices. There was a scandal here when a provincial government out of the blue installed a whole app in the smartphones of teachers AND students with no warning or any control whatsoever, and many people got scared that the administrative google service app being used by all (google education or some s*t) pretty much allowed the devices to be remotely controlled and viewed by the employer , be it private or public, so many people assumed any work devices is or can be done the same.
syntaxing 3y ago
100% agreed. I’m excited about the passwordless future but one unexplained ban from them and it’s like losing your physical wallet.
compiler-guy 3y ago
"You might get locked out of your account" is the updated version of the old "Your hard drive will crash." It isn't a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. Backups and a thorough disaster recovery plan is absolutely mandatory for anyone who cares about their data. Some company is going to mess something up due to no fault of your own. It is inevitable. Unfortunately, there aren't good disaster recovery options for some aspects of lost accounts, but having multiple accounts and avoiding single-points of failure help some.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  My thought on this is to involve notaries. As in you can get a notorised account. And if something goes wrong you can get a notary in the loop and by law the providers have to fix what ever has gone wrong or they are liable for actual and statutory damages.
  - j-bos 3y ago
    100% agreed. It's the analog reason notaries even exist.
leotravis10 3y ago
Especially for normal and older folks and Google's history of very non-existent support. Not to mention that passkeys is a flawed system as well. [1] [2] [1] https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111103819626952178 https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111103819626952... [2] https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111211366080459949 https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111211366080459...
- gowld 3y ago
  What is the flaw?
  - gcr 3y ago
    AFAICT, the flaw is that passkeys are tied to device security. If I steal a naive person’s phone at the bar, and if I can guess that their PIN is 1234, then I can get into their Google account. The criticism is based on the idea that most non-techie folks are unlikely to use a strong PIN and are unlikely to set up strong biometrics. There’s a related criticism about malware being able to steal passkeys on PC-based systems.
    - kahnclusions 3y ago
      Most people have _extremely_ weak device security. 0000, 1234, DDMM of their birthdate, etc, you probably cover the majority of people. And none of that helps you when someone robs you of your phone and says tell them your unlock code or they’ll stab you. Now they’ve got all your passkeys too.
      - Dlanv 3y ago
        They also have your phone so they have text messages, email access, Google auth access, etc. So yes it is true that your phone and it's pin/biometrics are ultimately the most important thing for security. But passkey on your phone is no worse than the previous state.
    - jackson1442 3y ago

skybrian 3y ago

Imagining pessimistic scenarios is useful if it spurs action. In this case, appropriate action would be to learn about Google's account recovery options and take advantage of them. Make sure you have multiple, independent ways of logging in. (For example, by printing out backup codes and keeping them with your important papers.) But even this can't protect against getting locked out of your Google account due to some Google policy change, so ideally we'd rehearse how to get by without it.

hedora 3y ago

I haven’t heard of people getting locked out of iCloud. Losing all your devices nukes E2EE stuff, but that’s not much stuff by default. In particular, photos, device backups and messages are recoverable. I thought the Apple Store would check your driver’s license or whatever and reset your password, recovering whatever is protected by the escrow keys. I know Google loses accounts all the time, mostly thanks to “surprise 2FA” combined with zero tech support. I’d believe Apple screws this up too, but I haven’t heard any anecdotes. Care to share a link to examples?

verytrivial 3y ago

Disaster recovery. This is 100% my biggest worry with 2FA/MFA. I also think this is one of the reasons stuff like PGP never took off (don't @ me regarding perfect forward secrecy): the problem has always been managing some little, precious thing and the ramifications of what happens if it put beyond use or is used by some bad actor.

brundolf 3y ago
I feel okay with Authy because I've got synced across multiple devices; one I bring out into the world and one I usually don't. I would be pretty nervous if I didn't have a second eligible device though
Whatever13 3y ago
I'm from Brazil, where as is known many robberies and assaults happen on the street, and ever since the whole process of putting essential life services into smartphones started, many people are adopting a scheme of having 2 smartphones (if not 3 or 4 for other reasons! ) : 1) The House smartphone → it is where you install everything truly vital, like the main bank app (started mainly because of this), 2FA apps like authy google microsoft equivalents, passwords, streaming apps (to do their 2FA), etc. This phone NEVER NEVER leaves the house, except ONCE if the bank app requires on location authentication of the phone for the bank app to function, which is common practice with traditional banks. 2) The Street Smartphone → you essentially create a ''street bank account'', deposit sufficient money for day-to-day transactions for some days or weeks, install the app, and only keep this app installed for any money use (many people also avoid even using the same bank as the main bank app, as the main bank usually is a traditional bank with physical locations to get help - and has tons of personal information stored - and the street bank usually is a fin-tech bank that people do not really trust like old banks, either economically or for security, but it has less personal data anyways). It also has the essencial social media like Whatsapp, instagram, some password manager like bitwarden or the apple-google cloud, and 2FA (the ones who actually use it) is avoided in this device. 3) the thief smartphone → many people like to take some old phone around to give to a thief if the need arises, this way even the street smartphone is saved. Might not work if the thief smartphone is too old or clearly broken though. 4) the work smartphone → the only mostly chill 2nd smartphone on the list, useful to keep private life separate from the professional life, and also is useful to avoid the boss sneaking into the worker's private life and devices. There was a scandal here when a provincial government out of the blue installed a whole app in the smartphones of teachers AND students with no warning or any control whatsoever, and many people got scared that the administrative google service app being used by all (google education or some s*t) pretty much allowed the devices to be remotely controlled and viewed by the employer , be it private or public, so many people assumed any work devices is or can be done the same.

syntaxing 3y ago

100% agreed. I’m excited about the passwordless future but one unexplained ban from them and it’s like losing your physical wallet.

compiler-guy 3y ago

"You might get locked out of your account" is the updated version of the old "Your hard drive will crash." It isn't a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. Backups and a thorough disaster recovery plan is absolutely mandatory for anyone who cares about their data. Some company is going to mess something up due to no fault of your own. It is inevitable. Unfortunately, there aren't good disaster recovery options for some aspects of lost accounts, but having multiple accounts and avoiding single-points of failure help some.

Gibbon1 3y ago
My thought on this is to involve notaries. As in you can get a notorised account. And if something goes wrong you can get a notary in the loop and by law the providers have to fix what ever has gone wrong or they are liable for actual and statutory damages.
- j-bos 3y ago
  100% agreed. It's the analog reason notaries even exist.

leotravis10 3y ago

Especially for normal and older folks and Google's history of very non-existent support. Not to mention that passkeys is a flawed system as well. [1] [2] [1] https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111103819626952178 https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111103819626952... [2] https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111211366080459949 https://mastodon.laurenweinstein.org/@lauren/111211366080459...

gowld 3y ago
What is the flaw?
- gcr 3y ago
  AFAICT, the flaw is that passkeys are tied to device security. If I steal a naive person’s phone at the bar, and if I can guess that their PIN is 1234, then I can get into their Google account. The criticism is based on the idea that most non-techie folks are unlikely to use a strong PIN and are unlikely to set up strong biometrics. There’s a related criticism about malware being able to steal passkeys on PC-based systems.
  - kahnclusions 3y ago
    Most people have _extremely_ weak device security. 0000, 1234, DDMM of their birthdate, etc, you probably cover the majority of people. And none of that helps you when someone robs you of your phone and says tell them your unlock code or they’ll stab you. Now they’ve got all your passkeys too.
    - Dlanv 3y ago
      They also have your phone so they have text messages, email access, Google auth access, etc. So yes it is true that your phone and it's pin/biometrics are ultimately the most important thing for security. But passkey on your phone is no worse than the previous state.
  - jackson1442 3y ago