5 ms·

The platform is fine. It can play Windows games using WINE just like Linux can.

by astrange 3y ago

vetinari 3y ago
* As long as the games are 64-bit and while Rosetta is still available.
- astrange 3y ago
  No, Win32 works too. If Rosetta stops being available there's always qemu.
  - vetinari 3y ago
    Win32 doesn't work on M1 and newer.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    qemu is dog slow, and it's barely working enough to get Windows 7 x86 to boot on a M2 (not to mention that the UTM guest tools are mostly broken, so no acceleration anywhere).
Alupis 3y ago
That's... not fine. As great as WINE can be, it's not native. Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple...
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Games are usually not native. They usually create a window and render to the entire viewport insted of using the OS's standard UI framework.
  - xcv123 3y ago
    UI framework? What about everything else such as file system, networking, audio, controller IO, threads, graphics API, etc?
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      Wine wraps those APIs. An abstraction over the filesystem is not that different whether it is in the game engine or in wine.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        No shit. That's my point. You said "games are usually not native". Which games? Not sure what you mean by that. Never mind.
        charcircuit 3y ago
        >Which games? As I said the vast majority of games. For example Minecraft is not a native Windows application in any way. It just creates a window and then renders the entire contents of the window itself instead of using win32 to make an interface.
        xcv123 3y ago
        No, only a tiny minority of PC games run on the JVM. The vast majority are native and not running on any kind of VM. Even with the Unity engine the games are natively compiled.
        xcv123 3y ago
        If the vast majority of games were on the JVM, then the vast majority of games would run on Linux or Mac without Proton or Wine, wouldn't they? That is not the case. Minecraft is probably the only major game that runs on the JVM.
        3y ago
- astrange 3y ago
  > Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) > And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple... Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; as a company they're famously unwilling to actually make games. See gaben's allergy to the number 3.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. > (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) By making their OS easy to target by game makers. There's no good excuse - Apple has access to the same graphics pipelines as everyone else. XPlat game engines have boiled it down to mostly a checkbox these days... so where's OSX? Apple has a lot of work to do before that's a reality. > Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; You can't be serious, are you? Valve's titles are among the most popular games in the history of games. They may make most of their money through Steam, but to say Valve doesn't make games is ridiculous. That wasn't even the point - Apple users will blame the actual studios/developers for not supporting OSX when the blame lies at Apple's feet. Billions in annual profit, zero f's given about gaming on their platform. It's a choice - and one Apple users need to comprehend. Apple doesn't care.
    - robertoandred 3y ago
      You think cross-platform game engines don't support Metal? They do, and have for a decade.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        Who else supports Metal? Oh, that's right - only Apple. There's more to game support than just graphics API. Apple chooses to make game support on OSX hard - and shocker... you don't get games supporting OSX. Who can we blame? Apple... Just like Apple chooses to make Linux kernel support hard on M1/M2 and leaves it entirely up to volunteers to make it work. Who do you blame? The Kernel developers or Apple?
zamalek 3y ago
So then it should be able to play CS2 via WINE, rendering all of this is moot?
- astrange 3y ago
  You'd have to install Steam under WINE too, which does work fine but would be confusing to have two of them.
kcb 3y ago
Except without the primary api that makes gaming on WINE viable. Vulkan with DXVK and VKD3D.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- astrange 3y ago
  https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK Translating between rendering APIs is not really the problem. The GPU design is more different than the API is.
  - kcb 3y ago
    MoltenVK is not enough and it lacks features that are mandatory for acceptable performance with dxvk/vkd3d. For example, VK_EXT_descriptor_buffer is a critical one, and there are more: https://www.khronos.org/blog/vk-ext-descriptor-buffer https://www.khronos.org/blog/vk-ext-descriptor-buffer. And MoltenVK doesn't support Vulkan 1.3.

The platform is fine. It can play Windows games using WINE just like Linux can.

vetinari 3y ago

* As long as the games are 64-bit and while Rosetta is still available.

astrange 3y ago
No, Win32 works too. If Rosetta stops being available there's always qemu.
- vetinari 3y ago
  Win32 doesn't work on M1 and newer.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  qemu is dog slow, and it's barely working enough to get Windows 7 x86 to boot on a M2 (not to mention that the UTM guest tools are mostly broken, so no acceleration anywhere).

Alupis 3y ago

That's... not fine. As great as WINE can be, it's not native. Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple...

charcircuit 3y ago
Games are usually not native. They usually create a window and render to the entire viewport insted of using the OS's standard UI framework.
- xcv123 3y ago
  UI framework? What about everything else such as file system, networking, audio, controller IO, threads, graphics API, etc?
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Wine wraps those APIs. An abstraction over the filesystem is not that different whether it is in the game engine or in wine.
    - xcv123 3y ago
      No shit. That's my point. You said "games are usually not native". Which games? Not sure what you mean by that. Never mind.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        >Which games? As I said the vast majority of games. For example Minecraft is not a native Windows application in any way. It just creates a window and then renders the entire contents of the window itself instead of using win32 to make an interface.
        xcv123 3y ago
        No, only a tiny minority of PC games run on the JVM. The vast majority are native and not running on any kind of VM. Even with the Unity engine the games are natively compiled.
        xcv123 3y ago
        If the vast majority of games were on the JVM, then the vast majority of games would run on Linux or Mac without Proton or Wine, wouldn't they? That is not the case. Minecraft is probably the only major game that runs on the JVM.
        3y ago
astrange 3y ago
> Apple has gone out of their way to prevent you from enjoying games on their systems. How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) > And who do the users blame? Game makers - not Apple... Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; as a company they're famously unwilling to actually make games. See gaben's allergy to the number 3.
- Alupis 3y ago
  > How, by having a different OS? Sorry about that I guess. > (If it had native Vulkan it wouldn't matter. The most effective strategy, the one Microsoft uses, is to buy all the game studios.) By making their OS easy to target by game makers. There's no good excuse - Apple has access to the same graphics pipelines as everyone else. XPlat game engines have boiled it down to mostly a checkbox these days... so where's OSX? Apple has a lot of work to do before that's a reality. > Calling Valve a game maker is a stretch; You can't be serious, are you? Valve's titles are among the most popular games in the history of games. They may make most of their money through Steam, but to say Valve doesn't make games is ridiculous. That wasn't even the point - Apple users will blame the actual studios/developers for not supporting OSX when the blame lies at Apple's feet. Billions in annual profit, zero f's given about gaming on their platform. It's a choice - and one Apple users need to comprehend. Apple doesn't care.
  - robertoandred 3y ago
    You think cross-platform game engines don't support Metal? They do, and have for a decade.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      Who else supports Metal? Oh, that's right - only Apple. There's more to game support than just graphics API. Apple chooses to make game support on OSX hard - and shocker... you don't get games supporting OSX. Who can we blame? Apple... Just like Apple chooses to make Linux kernel support hard on M1/M2 and leaves it entirely up to volunteers to make it work. Who do you blame? The Kernel developers or Apple?

zamalek 3y ago

So then it should be able to play CS2 via WINE, rendering all of this is moot?

astrange 3y ago
You'd have to install Steam under WINE too, which does work fine but would be confusing to have two of them.

kcb 3y ago

Except without the primary api that makes gaming on WINE viable. Vulkan with DXVK and VKD3D.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
astrange 3y ago
https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK Translating between rendering APIs is not really the problem. The GPU design is more different than the API is.
- kcb 3y ago
  MoltenVK is not enough and it lacks features that are mandatory for acceptable performance with dxvk/vkd3d. For example, VK_EXT_descriptor_buffer is a critical one, and there are more: https://www.khronos.org/blog/vk-ext-descriptor-buffer https://www.khronos.org/blog/vk-ext-descriptor-buffer. And MoltenVK doesn't support Vulkan 1.3.