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> maybe we could instead just announce another serious arms package for Ukraine instead?! I've never met a real human with this take. And I have friends on bo

> maybe we could instead just announce another serious arms package for Ukraine instead?! I've never met a real human with this take. And I have friends on both sides of the aisle, sat staunchly in their respective parties.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> never met a real human with this take Where are you? I, too, have friends on both sides of the aisle, and the general take is a single large tranche of weapons may be better than the current drip feed. (Bay Area, New York and Wyoming.) I only see opposition from the far left (New York, Bay Area) and right (Wyoming). (Not saying all opposition is extremists only. Just that it's where I see people fixate on opposing aid.)
- siftrics 3y ago
  Liberal-leaning state, conservative family members, conservative and liberal friends.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I've never met a real human with this take. I have, across the entire political spectrum. Here in Germany, you'll find supporters of more arms deliveries in all parties but the far-right AfD and the tankie parts of the Left Party. In fact, there is a lot of outrage at Chancellor Scholz from both the Conservative opposition and notable members of the government coalition for continuing to resist delivery of Taurus missiles that Ukraine could use to blow up the Kerch bridge once and for all.
- siftrics 3y ago
  My bubble is much different. It seems like every other week there's another multi-billion dollar aid package sent to Ukraine and everyone hates it.
  - justin66 3y ago
    Does "everyone" think Ukraine doesn't need the aid to defend itself, or do they want to see them fall?
    - siftrics 3y ago
      The parties more directly at risk (Europe) should bear the brunt of the aid, no?
      - justin66 3y ago
        That’s certainly a position one could take. In that context but also in the spirit of the original question, I wonder if the people in question think Europe is even capable of providing the amount of support that’s needed and if they would like to see Ukraine fall if Europe (in the absence of the US) proves incapable of delivering the aid Ukraine needs to defend itself. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around an isolationist mindset that wants to ignore invasions happening in Europe (go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line, why don’t you?) but I also wonder if these people take the US’s NATO obligations at all seriously, and if they’ve thought more than one move ahead. I’m not demanding you speak for these people, of course.
        mschuster91 3y ago
        > I wonder if the people in question think Europe is even capable of providing the amount of support that’s needed For what it's worth, we aren't. Our militaries, including the French and British, have been severely dismantled post-USSR and what remained was refocused on fighting jihadists in deserts after 9/11 and the followup conflicts. Most people thought that the days of an actual legit tank and artillery battle were long gone. > and if they would like to see Ukraine fall if Europe (in the absence of the US) proves incapable of delivering the aid Ukraine needs to defend itself At least for Americans with such thoughts: some of them see no problem at all for the US in such a scenario. They only care about their perspective, and since there is no way that refugees from that war or Russian war planes and ICBMs end up in Northern America, why should they care, especially when the threat of China is looming?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> never met a real human with this take Where are you? I, too, have friends on both sides of the aisle, and the general take is a single large tranche of weapons may be better than the current drip feed. (Bay Area, New York and Wyoming.) I only see opposition from the far left (New York, Bay Area) and right (Wyoming). (Not saying all opposition is extremists only. Just that it's where I see people fixate on opposing aid.)

siftrics 3y ago
Liberal-leaning state, conservative family members, conservative and liberal friends.

mschuster91 3y ago

> I've never met a real human with this take. I have, across the entire political spectrum. Here in Germany, you'll find supporters of more arms deliveries in all parties but the far-right AfD and the tankie parts of the Left Party. In fact, there is a lot of outrage at Chancellor Scholz from both the Conservative opposition and notable members of the government coalition for continuing to resist delivery of Taurus missiles that Ukraine could use to blow up the Kerch bridge once and for all.

siftrics 3y ago
My bubble is much different. It seems like every other week there's another multi-billion dollar aid package sent to Ukraine and everyone hates it.
- justin66 3y ago
  Does "everyone" think Ukraine doesn't need the aid to defend itself, or do they want to see them fall?
  - siftrics 3y ago
    The parties more directly at risk (Europe) should bear the brunt of the aid, no?
    - justin66 3y ago
      That’s certainly a position one could take. In that context but also in the spirit of the original question, I wonder if the people in question think Europe is even capable of providing the amount of support that’s needed and if they would like to see Ukraine fall if Europe (in the absence of the US) proves incapable of delivering the aid Ukraine needs to defend itself. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around an isolationist mindset that wants to ignore invasions happening in Europe (go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line, why don’t you?) but I also wonder if these people take the US’s NATO obligations at all seriously, and if they’ve thought more than one move ahead. I’m not demanding you speak for these people, of course.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        > I wonder if the people in question think Europe is even capable of providing the amount of support that’s needed For what it's worth, we aren't. Our militaries, including the French and British, have been severely dismantled post-USSR and what remained was refocused on fighting jihadists in deserts after 9/11 and the followup conflicts. Most people thought that the days of an actual legit tank and artillery battle were long gone. > and if they would like to see Ukraine fall if Europe (in the absence of the US) proves incapable of delivering the aid Ukraine needs to defend itself At least for Americans with such thoughts: some of them see no problem at all for the US in such a scenario. They only care about their perspective, and since there is no way that refugees from that war or Russian war planes and ICBMs end up in Northern America, why should they care, especially when the threat of China is looming?