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Is ‘we’ the US? The Ukraine situation needs a lot more than just the US to chip in. The US can win the war in short order - I saw reports of a carrier sent tow

Is ‘we’ the US? The Ukraine situation needs a lot more than just the US to chip in. The US can win the war in short order - I saw reports of a carrier sent towards Israel within hours of that attack. But Europe needs to sort out its bickering too, then maintain it. It’s a European problem, it hurts Europe and depending on the US is a problematic way of maintaining themselves.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Is ‘we’ the US? The entire Western nations. NATO was founded as a deterrent to Russia, and yet we let Russia run rampant after the fall of the USSR: countless "interventions" that were nothing more but thinly disguised massacres (and drove all Eastern European nations to beg NATO for accession), cyber criminality and cyber warfare, propaganda efforts so immense that they shifted politics in the US, UK and a lot of Continental European countries massively towards the far-right, the 2014 Ukraine invasion, supporting the war criminal Assad in Syria, destabilizing half of Africa to the tune that Europe and Turkey got to deal with millions of refugees, the Ukraine invasion, the destruction of North Stream, dealing weapons with Iran and North Korea... Just how much more are we willing to tolerate? When will we finally respond to all of that in an appropriate manner? (I know, this was a rhetoric question, the answer is: likely never as no one but the US has actually taken care of their military, and the US want to focus on China for good reasons) > The US can win the war in short order - I saw reports of a carrier sent towards Israel within hours of that attack. Yeah, if they're willing to glass Palestine?! Anything that should not devolve into a massacre will involve infantry warfare in just about the most hostile environment since probably Vietnam and take months - the Israelis are preparing for that, and I hope they're successful. The US carrier, I think, is for now purely a signal towards anyone else to stay the f..k out of Israel. > But Europe needs to sort out its bickering too, then maintain it. It’s a European problem, it hurts Europe and depending on the US is a problematic way of maintaining themselves. Agreed (especially given that it's very well possible that the Republicans win in 2024), but that will take time that a lot of the crises in the current polycrisis don't have - and it's not made easier by Hungary and now Slovakia being governed by Kremlin puppets.
wongarsu 3y ago
Not sure what you're asking for? Military aid to Ukraine from EU+UK is about the same as that from the US, which seems fair given that they have comparable area and population. And if you include non-military aid the EU is providing far more than the US. Sure, Hungary's recent block of an EU help package is bad, and the EU is in need of some reforms (like those suggested last month by a Franco-German group). A joint EU military would also be nice. But those are more important in topics like immigration, in military matters you can always form a coalition of the willing (which so far seems to be working well).
- lostlogin 3y ago
  I’m asking as I am interested. I don’t see this as a problem for the Us to solve, though they can. It’s primarily a European problem but the world as a whole needs to address it and show that the methods used by Russia will not be tolerated. Until 2022 Russia was clearly shown that their actions were ok, frowned upon but tolerated. It seems we are in a holding pattern now, and the west could swing it if it really wanted to.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    Ukraine might be Europe's problem, but it's the US's opportunity. The US is clearly interested in hurting their arch-enemy, and the Ukraine war is the most cost-effective way to do so that has existed in decades. As far as swinging against Russia: I'm not so sure that'd work. We can ensure that Russia keeps losing manpower, equipment and political capital against Ukraine. Maybe we could break the stalemate by establishing air superiority, though that might cost more Western lives than people are comfortable with. But that's about the extend of it. Sure, we could drive German tanks into Moscow. But all that's going to do is galvanize the Russian people against the West, and cause Russian military to fall back and dig in in the rest of the country. There's a reason people say you can't win a land war against Russia: the country is about half the size of Africa. Even just the European part is half the size of the US. It's incredibly hard to occupy, and historically most invaders failed at keeping supply lines intact.
    - 3y ago

mschuster91 3y ago

> Is ‘we’ the US? The entire Western nations. NATO was founded as a deterrent to Russia, and yet we let Russia run rampant after the fall of the USSR: countless "interventions" that were nothing more but thinly disguised massacres (and drove all Eastern European nations to beg NATO for accession), cyber criminality and cyber warfare, propaganda efforts so immense that they shifted politics in the US, UK and a lot of Continental European countries massively towards the far-right, the 2014 Ukraine invasion, supporting the war criminal Assad in Syria, destabilizing half of Africa to the tune that Europe and Turkey got to deal with millions of refugees, the Ukraine invasion, the destruction of North Stream, dealing weapons with Iran and North Korea... Just how much more are we willing to tolerate? When will we finally respond to all of that in an appropriate manner? (I know, this was a rhetoric question, the answer is: likely never as no one but the US has actually taken care of their military, and the US want to focus on China for good reasons) > The US can win the war in short order - I saw reports of a carrier sent towards Israel within hours of that attack. Yeah, if they're willing to glass Palestine?! Anything that should not devolve into a massacre will involve infantry warfare in just about the most hostile environment since probably Vietnam and take months - the Israelis are preparing for that, and I hope they're successful. The US carrier, I think, is for now purely a signal towards anyone else to stay the f..k out of Israel. > But Europe needs to sort out its bickering too, then maintain it. It’s a European problem, it hurts Europe and depending on the US is a problematic way of maintaining themselves. Agreed (especially given that it's very well possible that the Republicans win in 2024), but that will take time that a lot of the crises in the current polycrisis don't have - and it's not made easier by Hungary and now Slovakia being governed by Kremlin puppets.

wongarsu 3y ago

Not sure what you're asking for? Military aid to Ukraine from EU+UK is about the same as that from the US, which seems fair given that they have comparable area and population. And if you include non-military aid the EU is providing far more than the US. Sure, Hungary's recent block of an EU help package is bad, and the EU is in need of some reforms (like those suggested last month by a Franco-German group). A joint EU military would also be nice. But those are more important in topics like immigration, in military matters you can always form a coalition of the willing (which so far seems to be working well).

lostlogin 3y ago
I’m asking as I am interested. I don’t see this as a problem for the Us to solve, though they can. It’s primarily a European problem but the world as a whole needs to address it and show that the methods used by Russia will not be tolerated. Until 2022 Russia was clearly shown that their actions were ok, frowned upon but tolerated. It seems we are in a holding pattern now, and the west could swing it if it really wanted to.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Ukraine might be Europe's problem, but it's the US's opportunity. The US is clearly interested in hurting their arch-enemy, and the Ukraine war is the most cost-effective way to do so that has existed in decades. As far as swinging against Russia: I'm not so sure that'd work. We can ensure that Russia keeps losing manpower, equipment and political capital against Ukraine. Maybe we could break the stalemate by establishing air superiority, though that might cost more Western lives than people are comfortable with. But that's about the extend of it. Sure, we could drive German tanks into Moscow. But all that's going to do is galvanize the Russian people against the West, and cause Russian military to fall back and dig in in the rest of the country. There's a reason people say you can't win a land war against Russia: the country is about half the size of Africa. Even just the European part is half the size of the US. It's incredibly hard to occupy, and historically most invaders failed at keeping supply lines intact.
  - 3y ago