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Here's to hoping that with gaming on Linux gaining prominence (thanks in no small part to Wine/Proton and Steam Deck), Linux overcomes Windows as the go-to OS f

Here's to hoping that with gaming on Linux gaining prominence (thanks in no small part to Wine/Proton and Steam Deck), Linux overcomes Windows as the go-to OS for gaming.

pjmlp 3y ago
Never going to happen, after all Proton emulates Windows.
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Proton Is Not an Emulator
  - CelticBard 3y ago
    PINE
- xethos 3y ago
  And Windows 10 can emulate the Super Nintendo. But multiple consoles are not as cheap as the Windows box you already have, more annoying to setup or stow, and don't have some little QoL addons, like freezing the game. What you're emulating is irrelevant. What matters is which provides a better experience to you, the end user. One choice is actively being worked on, while the other (despite under-the-hood perf. improvements IIRC) seems to garner more loathing and disdain with each release.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Except AAA game developers no longer care about Super Nintendo.
    - belthesar 3y ago
      I think you missed the forest for the trees there.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Linux folks swearing for "Linux games" that are in reality Windows games running on top of a Windows emulation layer are the ones missing the forest from the trees. OS/2 says hello.
        porkbeer 3y ago
        We are literally in a thread where a native AAA release was on Linux day one. Still not common, but not exactly rare.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        AAA games from Valve don't count. It is the AAA games from other publishers that matter, those that even publish to Android, while ignoring GNU/Linux.
- oaththrowaway 3y ago
  Wine is not an emulator
  - coldpie 3y ago
    I hate this reply. Wine is not an emulator, but it does emulate Windows('s behavior).
    - karolist 3y ago
      To those who might not be aware: Wine originally stood for "Wine is not an emulator", a recursive acronym that were popular in the geek culture a few decades ago. Same for KDE Desktop Environment and GNU's not Unix.
    - IntelMiner 3y ago
      It *approximates* Windows behaviour and acts as an intermediary layer of "glue logic" An emulator will generally try to provide an abstracted set of hardware and other features
      - paulmd 3y ago
        https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1318672 https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1318672 I guess this falls under "other features" but it's pretty common to emulate systems behavior via a re-implementation, or thunking calls to a copy of the original libraries, etc. Oracle uses the verb "emulate" to describe branded zones, which function similarly, as well. I think it's semantically fine to call this emulation, it's just high-level emulation. https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E53394_01/html/E54762/gitrc.html https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E53394_01/html/E54762/gitrc.html
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Indeed, the technical implementation doesn't matter for the context that it helps to strenghen Windows market position among game studios.
- yesco 3y ago
  Proton is just a new desktop application API for Linux, one specialized for gaming. While the win32 API is certainly not an open standard, it is a stable one, arguably more stable than even browser APIs, and obviously more stable than the various APIs offered by Linux. Years ago I was optimistic that fixed shared library runtimes, such as the ones offered by Steam, would be enough to make native game development for Linux viable. But even with these, so many things simply break in places they should NEVER break, and can only be fixed by recompiling them (thanks glibc), so I no longer feel this way. While my heart bleeds for open source, video games are fundamentally more art than function, so the expectation that the user (or the upstream maintainer, Steam) needs to be capable of recompiling them is simply unrealistic when considering the licensing & support required for this. Video games need a stable API, perhaps even more than most other types of software. A game built 10 years ago should continue to work when run today. When considering all of this, along with the fact that Valve is the only large organization with the resources and incentive to fix this situation. The only real path forward Valve has here is to create their own custom desktop application API for Linux that goes beyond just a set of shared libraries and is fully integrated, meaning third-party game developers don't need get involved in the often messy inter-library politics the Linux community is accustomed too. But if Valve really needs to go that far, why invent a whole new API for it? Why not just copy win32? That's the most popular API among game developers after all. In fact there is already a Linux runtime that not only supports win32, but actually treats desktop stability as a core priority: WINE. Why not just throw resources at that instead of making something new? While I'm mostly speculating here, I suspect that this line of reasoning is what gave birth to Proton. It has also led to interesting situations, consider this: Elden Ring on release had/has a problem with micro-stuttering, this issue was patched in Proton very quickly, within the first week of release, but remains an issue on Windows to this day. This means that right now, Linux is the best platform to play Elden Ring on if you want the best performance and graphics. Much like video drivers are updated to fix bugs for individual games, Proton now fills this role as well, but with an even faster development cycle. This highlights one of the key benefits of Proton: it scopes an entire Win32 runtime (wineprefix) to each game. A hasty hotfix for one game will not break another, each game needs to only pin the runtime that works, and no further tweaking is necessary. You simply cannot do this on Windows, Microsoft does not have this kind of flexibility. A future where Proton outlives Windows, one where Proton expands the win32 API to include more features never supported by Windows, while I can't say it will happen, it certainly can happen, and I'm excited to see where this goes.
- diogenes4 3y ago
  ...isn't that just evidence that windows is actively being replaced?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Rather the evidence Linux will never have native games, not even studios targeting Android NDK care about GNU/Linux.
    - surgical_fire 3y ago
      If Linux offer a layer of compatibility with Windows API, abd devs release games ensuring that the games run on that compatibility layer, the distinction of "but they don't release games natively for Linux" is largely irrelevant. Linux is a better OS than Windows in mostly every way, and what held a lot of people from making the switch was the inability to run their game library there. Nowadays, I can run the vast majority of my game library on Linux without any issues. In fact, older games are often better supported by WINE/Proton than by Windows itself. And the situation seems to only improve as time passes.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  Yes. But that's the thing - if more and more people play games on Linux (even through Wine), there will be more Linux machines around. Developers might be more interested in developing for it if it is more than a footnote of an OS, possibly creating a positive feedback loop. Especially with companies such as Valve invested into it. A man can at least dream, no?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Worked great for OS/2.
    - yesco 3y ago
      OS/2 was competing on the enterprise market, I don't really see it as a good comparison to the Linux/Proton situation, yet for some reason I see it brought up a lot in these discussions. Why would OS/2 come to mind and not the successes of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX ?
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Because those things were only to get DoD contracts, "Supports POSIX" checkbox.

Here's to hoping that with gaming on Linux gaining prominence (thanks in no small part to Wine/Proton and Steam Deck), Linux overcomes Windows as the go-to OS for gaming.

pjmlp 3y ago

Never going to happen, after all Proton emulates Windows.

beebeepka 3y ago
Proton Is Not an Emulator
- CelticBard 3y ago
  PINE
xethos 3y ago
And Windows 10 can emulate the Super Nintendo. But multiple consoles are not as cheap as the Windows box you already have, more annoying to setup or stow, and don't have some little QoL addons, like freezing the game. What you're emulating is irrelevant. What matters is which provides a better experience to you, the end user. One choice is actively being worked on, while the other (despite under-the-hood perf. improvements IIRC) seems to garner more loathing and disdain with each release.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Except AAA game developers no longer care about Super Nintendo.
  - belthesar 3y ago
    I think you missed the forest for the trees there.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Linux folks swearing for "Linux games" that are in reality Windows games running on top of a Windows emulation layer are the ones missing the forest from the trees. OS/2 says hello.
      - porkbeer 3y ago
        We are literally in a thread where a native AAA release was on Linux day one. Still not common, but not exactly rare.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        AAA games from Valve don't count. It is the AAA games from other publishers that matter, those that even publish to Android, while ignoring GNU/Linux.
oaththrowaway 3y ago
Wine is not an emulator
- coldpie 3y ago
  I hate this reply. Wine is not an emulator, but it does emulate Windows('s behavior).
  - karolist 3y ago
    To those who might not be aware: Wine originally stood for "Wine is not an emulator", a recursive acronym that were popular in the geek culture a few decades ago. Same for KDE Desktop Environment and GNU's not Unix.
  - IntelMiner 3y ago
    It *approximates* Windows behaviour and acts as an intermediary layer of "glue logic" An emulator will generally try to provide an abstracted set of hardware and other features
    - paulmd 3y ago
      https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1318672 https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1318672 I guess this falls under "other features" but it's pretty common to emulate systems behavior via a re-implementation, or thunking calls to a copy of the original libraries, etc. Oracle uses the verb "emulate" to describe branded zones, which function similarly, as well. I think it's semantically fine to call this emulation, it's just high-level emulation. https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E53394_01/html/E54762/gitrc.html https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E53394_01/html/E54762/gitrc.html
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Indeed, the technical implementation doesn't matter for the context that it helps to strenghen Windows market position among game studios.
yesco 3y ago
Proton is just a new desktop application API for Linux, one specialized for gaming. While the win32 API is certainly not an open standard, it is a stable one, arguably more stable than even browser APIs, and obviously more stable than the various APIs offered by Linux. Years ago I was optimistic that fixed shared library runtimes, such as the ones offered by Steam, would be enough to make native game development for Linux viable. But even with these, so many things simply break in places they should NEVER break, and can only be fixed by recompiling them (thanks glibc), so I no longer feel this way. While my heart bleeds for open source, video games are fundamentally more art than function, so the expectation that the user (or the upstream maintainer, Steam) needs to be capable of recompiling them is simply unrealistic when considering the licensing & support required for this. Video games need a stable API, perhaps even more than most other types of software. A game built 10 years ago should continue to work when run today. When considering all of this, along with the fact that Valve is the only large organization with the resources and incentive to fix this situation. The only real path forward Valve has here is to create their own custom desktop application API for Linux that goes beyond just a set of shared libraries and is fully integrated, meaning third-party game developers don't need get involved in the often messy inter-library politics the Linux community is accustomed too. But if Valve really needs to go that far, why invent a whole new API for it? Why not just copy win32? That's the most popular API among game developers after all. In fact there is already a Linux runtime that not only supports win32, but actually treats desktop stability as a core priority: WINE. Why not just throw resources at that instead of making something new? While I'm mostly speculating here, I suspect that this line of reasoning is what gave birth to Proton. It has also led to interesting situations, consider this: Elden Ring on release had/has a problem with micro-stuttering, this issue was patched in Proton very quickly, within the first week of release, but remains an issue on Windows to this day. This means that right now, Linux is the best platform to play Elden Ring on if you want the best performance and graphics. Much like video drivers are updated to fix bugs for individual games, Proton now fills this role as well, but with an even faster development cycle. This highlights one of the key benefits of Proton: it scopes an entire Win32 runtime (wineprefix) to each game. A hasty hotfix for one game will not break another, each game needs to only pin the runtime that works, and no further tweaking is necessary. You simply cannot do this on Windows, Microsoft does not have this kind of flexibility. A future where Proton outlives Windows, one where Proton expands the win32 API to include more features never supported by Windows, while I can't say it will happen, it certainly can happen, and I'm excited to see where this goes.
diogenes4 3y ago
...isn't that just evidence that windows is actively being replaced?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Rather the evidence Linux will never have native games, not even studios targeting Android NDK care about GNU/Linux.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    If Linux offer a layer of compatibility with Windows API, abd devs release games ensuring that the games run on that compatibility layer, the distinction of "but they don't release games natively for Linux" is largely irrelevant. Linux is a better OS than Windows in mostly every way, and what held a lot of people from making the switch was the inability to run their game library there. Nowadays, I can run the vast majority of my game library on Linux without any issues. In fact, older games are often better supported by WINE/Proton than by Windows itself. And the situation seems to only improve as time passes.
surgical_fire 3y ago
Yes. But that's the thing - if more and more people play games on Linux (even through Wine), there will be more Linux machines around. Developers might be more interested in developing for it if it is more than a footnote of an OS, possibly creating a positive feedback loop. Especially with companies such as Valve invested into it. A man can at least dream, no?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Worked great for OS/2.
  - yesco 3y ago
    OS/2 was competing on the enterprise market, I don't really see it as a good comparison to the Linux/Proton situation, yet for some reason I see it brought up a lot in these discussions. Why would OS/2 come to mind and not the successes of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX ?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Because those things were only to get DoD contracts, "Supports POSIX" checkbox.