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They'd have less success and support if the EU wasn't the only entity doing something about antitrust and market abuse. This kind of massive initiative becomes

They'd have less success and support if the EU wasn't the only entity doing something about antitrust and market abuse. This kind of massive initiative becomes realistic because they've been battling for ages against the tech giants and know they can take the heat.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
Are they though? They make a lot of noise about it but meanwhile who have they broken up? You can't even replace the OS your phone came with in most cases, Safari/Chrome derivatives are 95% of the browser market, app stores are still charging 30% with no meaningful competition and excluding apps that compete with their own, Qualcomm et al don't publish what's necessary to produce indepedent firmware for the zillion devices that use their chips and whose OEMs went out of business or otherwise stopped updating them. Sound and fury is nothing. Actually fix some of these.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Please tell me where this fairy tale comes from that either Apple or Google are excluding apps that compete with its own?
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Apple, for iOS? You have to use their browser engine, you can't install anything like a JVM or the .NET runtime that competes with their APIs, you can't replace the Apple libraries that other apps use even if you were willing to implement the same interface, you have to use their App Store app to install other apps, you can't produce kernel drivers for third party hardware, pretty much all of the software they include with the device you're proscribed from replacing with a competing offering from someone else. Google uses different methods (e.g. until fairly recently third party app stores couldn't auto-update the apps they installed, now many apps require attestation that fails if you don't run Google's code), but somehow or other the vast majority of Android phones still end up with Google Play and Google services.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      All that and you still haven’t shown where “you can’t install an app that competes with their own” Microsoft and Google both have cross platform frameworks for iOS and Android.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Browsers with their own browser engines and bytecode runtimes are apps. These are the exact things Microsoft got in trouble for in the 90s -- because they enable competition. A translation layer between a generic API and Apple's isn't the same thing. It can't add things Apple's doesn't already have. For example, how do you run CUDA or OpenCL code on Apple's devices? Can a cross-platform framework provide a payments implementation so your cross-platform app can use a cross-platform payments system for in-app purchases? No, because they make you use theirs and apps that compete with theirs aren't allowed. Visual Studio Code is clearly an app. Apple doesn't allow it on iOS. Apple makes a competing app -- for which they want you to buy a Mac. You can't just use a definition of "app" that means "whatever is in their app store" and then claim that whatever they don't allow in their app store isn't an app.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        A bytceode runtime is not an “application”. Apple never stopped VSCode from being on iOS. There are plenty of IDEs for the iPad built by third parties. No one would ever call a virtual machine an “application”. Are you making up things now? You don’t run CUDA on any non Nvidia hardware. But yes, you are free to port OpenCL to iOS if you want to. > Can a cross-platform framework provide a payments implementation so your cross-platform app can use a cross-platform payments system for in-app purchases A “payment API” is not an “application”. Yes the cross platform frameworks do expose the underlying API. And you can have a cross platform app that forces you to subscribe outside of the App Store - Spotify, Netflix, Microsoft, etc all do that. > No because they make you use theirs and apps that compete with theirs aren't allowed. Are you saying that their no competitors on iOS to AppleTV, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, Apple Books, the iWork suite?
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  You're asking these questions as if others have shown strides in all these domains and they're table stakes. Apple got asked why they take 30% by the US gov, answered that they just like money, and never got asked anything again. The only gov that could do squat on that front is China. Netherlands and Korea barely got some small exceptions. Same way Google's only trial that went anywhere regarding Google Services binding happened in EU, and the only country that got away with a vibrant android ecosystem is China (to my knowledge...does India do too?) I'll poopoo Eu's efforts when another entity actually splits Google away, and I'll be really happy to do so, trust me.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    You're using "at least they do something about antitrust" as an excuse for all their poorly thought out rules that increase compliance burdens and actually make competing in those markets harder. You can't then say "well the US isn't doing it" -- the US isn't imposing the higher compliance costs either.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

Are they though? They make a lot of noise about it but meanwhile who have they broken up? You can't even replace the OS your phone came with in most cases, Safari/Chrome derivatives are 95% of the browser market, app stores are still charging 30% with no meaningful competition and excluding apps that compete with their own, Qualcomm et al don't publish what's necessary to produce indepedent firmware for the zillion devices that use their chips and whose OEMs went out of business or otherwise stopped updating them. Sound and fury is nothing. Actually fix some of these.

scarface_74 3y ago
Please tell me where this fairy tale comes from that either Apple or Google are excluding apps that compete with its own?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Apple, for iOS? You have to use their browser engine, you can't install anything like a JVM or the .NET runtime that competes with their APIs, you can't replace the Apple libraries that other apps use even if you were willing to implement the same interface, you have to use their App Store app to install other apps, you can't produce kernel drivers for third party hardware, pretty much all of the software they include with the device you're proscribed from replacing with a competing offering from someone else. Google uses different methods (e.g. until fairly recently third party app stores couldn't auto-update the apps they installed, now many apps require attestation that fails if you don't run Google's code), but somehow or other the vast majority of Android phones still end up with Google Play and Google services.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    All that and you still haven’t shown where “you can’t install an app that competes with their own” Microsoft and Google both have cross platform frameworks for iOS and Android.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Browsers with their own browser engines and bytecode runtimes are apps. These are the exact things Microsoft got in trouble for in the 90s -- because they enable competition. A translation layer between a generic API and Apple's isn't the same thing. It can't add things Apple's doesn't already have. For example, how do you run CUDA or OpenCL code on Apple's devices? Can a cross-platform framework provide a payments implementation so your cross-platform app can use a cross-platform payments system for in-app purchases? No, because they make you use theirs and apps that compete with theirs aren't allowed. Visual Studio Code is clearly an app. Apple doesn't allow it on iOS. Apple makes a competing app -- for which they want you to buy a Mac. You can't just use a definition of "app" that means "whatever is in their app store" and then claim that whatever they don't allow in their app store isn't an app.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        A bytceode runtime is not an “application”. Apple never stopped VSCode from being on iOS. There are plenty of IDEs for the iPad built by third parties. No one would ever call a virtual machine an “application”. Are you making up things now? You don’t run CUDA on any non Nvidia hardware. But yes, you are free to port OpenCL to iOS if you want to. > Can a cross-platform framework provide a payments implementation so your cross-platform app can use a cross-platform payments system for in-app purchases A “payment API” is not an “application”. Yes the cross platform frameworks do expose the underlying API. And you can have a cross platform app that forces you to subscribe outside of the App Store - Spotify, Netflix, Microsoft, etc all do that. > No because they make you use theirs and apps that compete with theirs aren't allowed. Are you saying that their no competitors on iOS to AppleTV, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, Apple Books, the iWork suite?
makeitdouble 3y ago
You're asking these questions as if others have shown strides in all these domains and they're table stakes. Apple got asked why they take 30% by the US gov, answered that they just like money, and never got asked anything again. The only gov that could do squat on that front is China. Netherlands and Korea barely got some small exceptions. Same way Google's only trial that went anywhere regarding Google Services binding happened in EU, and the only country that got away with a vibrant android ecosystem is China (to my knowledge...does India do too?) I'll poopoo Eu's efforts when another entity actually splits Google away, and I'll be really happy to do so, trust me.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  You're using "at least they do something about antitrust" as an excuse for all their poorly thought out rules that increase compliance burdens and actually make competing in those markets harder. You can't then say "well the US isn't doing it" -- the US isn't imposing the higher compliance costs either.