5 ms·

If only if legislators could get their shit together and mandate ECC. It is unnerving most computing is done in fragile non-ecc systems. A very messed up form

by snvzz 3y ago

If only if legislators could get their shit together and mandate ECC. It is unnerving most computing is done in fragile non-ecc systems. A very messed up form of artificial market segmentation.

jjeaff 3y ago
I hear this all the time, that non-ecc machines are just completely fragile, and the math seems to indicate that one should be getting bit flips all the time. and yet, my Intel system has 64gb of non-ecc ram and it runs half the day everyday and is hibernated at night. I run 3d cad software on it, Photoshop, vs code with tons of extensions and software running in wsl2 docker containers and I just never really get any errors. certainly no crashing or blue screen. what exactly should one expect from bitflip errors? I would think that even single bitflips as often as they should happen with 64gb of ram being used almost fully would show up somehow.
- justinclift 3y ago
  > what exactly should one expect from bitflip errors? Probably silently wrong values happening in memory somewhere. If it's not in something where that value is not actively running code code, you probably won't have a crash. If it's in (say) Excel calculation formula it'll probably just screw up the calculation. Which may or may not be obvious. Similar thing for 3D cad, it could be completely non-obvious.
declan_roberts 3y ago
Fragile non-ecc systems? Something that works absolutely fine 99.9999% of the time is not fragile.
- cwaffles 3y ago
  Probability of a bit error increases as memory increases. Opens a large can of worms if control flow breaks.
  - josephg 3y ago
    Yep. 99.9999% correct would mean 8 bit flips per megabyte of data stored in ram. The error rates are (thankfully) much lower than that (otherwise your computer wouldn’t boot). But random bit flips can cause utter havoc if they happen at the wrong time or place. If you download software from the internet, bit flips can introduce weird bugs to your software, only on your computer. (Including in the OS - including your filesystem or drivers). They can corrupt writes to your hard drive, and as a result corrupt your drive or files. Bit flips can quietly change the DNS request your browser sends to cause terrifying security problems. Or edit forms before you send them. There was even a case of a voting machine in Germany accidentally inventing 4096 votes due to a bit flip. ECC is a really good idea. It’s only expensive right now because it’s a “premium feature”. If it were a standard part of all ram sticks, it’d be cheap and we’d all benefit.
    - littlecranky67 3y ago
      Not argueing against ECC, but some of your scenarios seem to be outdated due to crypto. I.e software you download from the internet is often signed and hashes are validated (Linux package managers, macOS developer certs). Same for DNS requests (dnssec) etc. Yes, there is still wiggle room for bitflips to cause problems, but less so than in the past.
      - mcesch 3y ago
        DNSSEC is around the 4~5% mark in .com and .net.
        littlecranky67 3y ago
        True - my bad of referring to DNSsec; there are other ways you can use encryption for DNS resolving (by using an external DNS server that encrypts using TLS or simply by using DNS-over-HTTPs). This way you get 100% encryption of your DNS traffic (and thus tamper checks that would detect bitflips). Again, not arguing against ECC, there are valid points to want it - I just see less and less reasons in the consumer market.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  That's just made up statistics - average computer gets multiple errors a day. This was fine when consumer computers were for games and porn. Now they store birth certificates, submit information to the tax man, documents to court, sometimes deal with matters of life and death
bubblethink 3y ago
>legislators Haven't you seen those congressional hearings with Zuck and others where congresspeople ask about how to use their phone ? How do you expect them to legislate about ECC ?
deleted 3y ago
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by snvzz 3y ago

If only if legislators could get their shit together and mandate ECC. It is unnerving most computing is done in fragile non-ecc systems. A very messed up form of artificial market segmentation.

jjeaff 3y ago

I hear this all the time, that non-ecc machines are just completely fragile, and the math seems to indicate that one should be getting bit flips all the time. and yet, my Intel system has 64gb of non-ecc ram and it runs half the day everyday and is hibernated at night. I run 3d cad software on it, Photoshop, vs code with tons of extensions and software running in wsl2 docker containers and I just never really get any errors. certainly no crashing or blue screen. what exactly should one expect from bitflip errors? I would think that even single bitflips as often as they should happen with 64gb of ram being used almost fully would show up somehow.

justinclift 3y ago
> what exactly should one expect from bitflip errors? Probably silently wrong values happening in memory somewhere. If it's not in something where that value is not actively running code code, you probably won't have a crash. If it's in (say) Excel calculation formula it'll probably just screw up the calculation. Which may or may not be obvious. Similar thing for 3D cad, it could be completely non-obvious.

declan_roberts 3y ago

Fragile non-ecc systems? Something that works absolutely fine 99.9999% of the time is not fragile.

cwaffles 3y ago
Probability of a bit error increases as memory increases. Opens a large can of worms if control flow breaks.
- josephg 3y ago
  Yep. 99.9999% correct would mean 8 bit flips per megabyte of data stored in ram. The error rates are (thankfully) much lower than that (otherwise your computer wouldn’t boot). But random bit flips can cause utter havoc if they happen at the wrong time or place. If you download software from the internet, bit flips can introduce weird bugs to your software, only on your computer. (Including in the OS - including your filesystem or drivers). They can corrupt writes to your hard drive, and as a result corrupt your drive or files. Bit flips can quietly change the DNS request your browser sends to cause terrifying security problems. Or edit forms before you send them. There was even a case of a voting machine in Germany accidentally inventing 4096 votes due to a bit flip. ECC is a really good idea. It’s only expensive right now because it’s a “premium feature”. If it were a standard part of all ram sticks, it’d be cheap and we’d all benefit.
  - littlecranky67 3y ago
    Not argueing against ECC, but some of your scenarios seem to be outdated due to crypto. I.e software you download from the internet is often signed and hashes are validated (Linux package managers, macOS developer certs). Same for DNS requests (dnssec) etc. Yes, there is still wiggle room for bitflips to cause problems, but less so than in the past.
    - mcesch 3y ago
      DNSSEC is around the 4~5% mark in .com and .net.
      - littlecranky67 3y ago
        True - my bad of referring to DNSsec; there are other ways you can use encryption for DNS resolving (by using an external DNS server that encrypts using TLS or simply by using DNS-over-HTTPs). This way you get 100% encryption of your DNS traffic (and thus tamper checks that would detect bitflips). Again, not arguing against ECC, there are valid points to want it - I just see less and less reasons in the consumer market.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
That's just made up statistics - average computer gets multiple errors a day. This was fine when consumer computers were for games and porn. Now they store birth certificates, submit information to the tax man, documents to court, sometimes deal with matters of life and death

bubblethink 3y ago

>legislators Haven't you seen those congressional hearings with Zuck and others where congresspeople ask about how to use their phone ? How do you expect them to legislate about ECC ?

deleted 3y ago

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