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Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. And it's interesting that their defense is an implication that a witness is committing perjury

by bmitc 3y ago

Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. And it's interesting that their defense is an implication that a witness is committing perjury for a lighter sentence without any evidence backing it up. And just what in the world were any of these people thinking? Sam Bankman-Fried isn't remotely charismatic, so I just don't understand why people would follow his demands and actively participate in such obvious fraud. How do you reason with yourself about randomly generating an insurance fund's balance that has been testified, under oath to Congress and various other binding contracts I'm sure?

xwolfi 3y ago
Perjury* Sam is highly charismatic, especially when all you want to hear is that you send 2000$ and will receive 100k$ if only you listen to him and use his product. He's part of the mumbo jumbo guru crowd. I'm a programmer in finance: I understand nothing when SBF talks, it's like complete random BS, totally different from the traders I work with who would use complex concepts but with always a visible thread: utility -> transformation adding value -> profit, with SBF it's all so fuzzy and unclear, it's like he pretends to talk like we're idiots to hide the fact he's the idiot who forgot that you need to sacrifice potential upside for downside insurance...
- bmitc 3y ago
  I personally never found him charismatic at all, even before all of this got exposed. He has always seemed like a tweaker who thought himself smarter than he is, which is exactly what he turned out to be. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone would listen to him for any length of time.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    What if he paid you to listen? You know, hypothetically speaking
    - kristofferg 3y ago
      Asking for a friend?
    - hfuyf65 3y ago
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozjiX1E7ZA&pp=ygUTc2JmIGludGVydmlldyAyMDIwIA%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozjiX1E7ZA&pp=ygUTc2JmIGludGV... Picked an interview ar random. He is not charismatic, but he can talk like so many banking VPs talk ( almost no substance ). This may have helped him make people part with money.
      - dilyevsky 3y ago
        Isn’t VP typically an entry level employee at a bank? If so, I would agree. He clearly doesn’t know when to stfu, he’s gonna get 30 to life
- nullc 3y ago
  > I'm a programmer in finance: I understand nothing when SBF talks, it's like complete random BS, totally different from the traders I work with who would use complex concepts but with always a visible thread: utility -> transformation adding value -> profit, with SBF it's all so fuzzy and unclear, it's like he pretends to talk like we're idiots to hide the fact he's the idiot who forgot that you need to sacrifice potential upside for downside insurance... It appears that there is a sizable audience who will hear that and conclude he's a subject matter super genius and that you're a total idiot.
  - Melting_Harps 3y ago
    > It appears that there is a sizable audience who will hear that and conclude he's a subject matter super genius and that you're a total idiot. Many of them the titans of SV no less, Sequoia being chief among them; honestly, I called this imbecile being in jail in mid-late '21 when he announced he was going to start influencing US politics. He was an idiot then and he has proven himself and even greater one with time. Likely mentally ill, as well. I do want to underscore that this scammer would have NEVER gotten the chance he had were it not for the connections his family has at Stanford, and thus VC, and the litany of connections that followed. This article is a must read [0], as were the testimonies given by gyus like Scarmocci (I'm not going to correct his name), because it all boils down to the fact that he was the child of privilisge and connected to all the power-brokers in SV. SBF, FTX and Alameda is and will always remain a a Silicon Valley VC backed cluster***, and it must be noted that this has nothing to do with us and everything to do with THEM. > Silicon Valley could be said to be in the business of reality distortion. Fundraising for startups can be as much about narrative as about economic fundamentals. Most venture capital portfolios are filled with companies that will fail because their model is wrong, their product won’t land, their vision of the future won’t pan out. The high dropout rate means that everyone is in search of the one thing that will reach escape velocity. Everyone is looking for an epochal success—a Steve Jobs, a Jeff Bezos. That creates a degree of hunger—even desperation—that can be exploited by someone who arrives with a great story at the right moment. 0: https://www.wired.com/story/why-silicon-valley-falls-for-frauds/ https://www.wired.com/story/why-silicon-valley-falls-for-fra...
chubot 3y ago
It's also funny to me that they just use Github and Google docs. It seems like if you were committing massive fraud, you'd want to avoid leaving permanent records of it on someone else's systems. But I think this is generational thing. If you grew up when web browsers were already prevalent, a "text file on your hard drive" probably means almost nothing. It's just not the way you use computers. I also like this bit from the article: Note to self: if you’re going to write code to do fraud, make it messy and unreadable to reduce the chances it’s later put in front of a jury as evidence.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  I mean, the reason the fraud looks so brazen now is because they were obviously true believers - they never expected to get caught. If crypto had gone up and up and up forever as intended, the fraud would never have been discovered. Of course, the other possibility is that at least having this amount of visible paper trail was intentional - the CTO probably had a little voice in the back of his head going "Umm, maybe committing multi-billion dollar fraud is a bad idea...", but the GitHub history probably helps him more than it hurts now, at the expense of SBF.
  - SilasX 3y ago
    I made an earlier comment explaining it as SBF coming to believe that his tricks kept working so consistently that he regarded them as some kind of fundamental aspect of reality, that he could always find another investor to give him a reprieve, he could always find another sucker to buy FTT at an inflated value (sorry, “exit liquidity”). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33973023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33973023
  - bmitc 3y ago
    > If crypto had gone up and up and up forever as intended, the fraud would never have been discovered. I'm not sure of that. When you need an account's credit limit set to $65 billion because the account (Alameda Research) kept hitting the credit limit, something is seriously, seriously wrong irrespective of the state of crypto. It seems like they were inevitably going to fail hard. FTX was literally allowing Alameda Research to trade with make believe money. Some of the major traditional brokers will just up and close your account permanently if you abuse, even within their already strict rulesets, their margin accounts.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. Would easily bet that was his decision. He's obviously made insanely stupid choices already, like leaking Caroline Ellison's journal and getting his bail revoked. I'm sure he was counseled against it, but his lawyers were probably like "well, he wants to swing the bat, and we get paid more if it goes to trial anyway."
- bmitc 3y ago
  It becomes more and more clear that he's just a sociopathic idiot, sort of like Miles Bron from The Glass Onion. I wonder how off his rocker he is from drug use.
- heylook 3y ago
  >> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. >Would easily bet that was his decision. That's a tautology. His decision to plead not-guilty is literally his decision.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    it's obvious the parent comment means that he was counseled against it and decided to do it anyway because he's just like that.
  - phoe-krk 3y ago
    His decision - as opposed to what his lawyers could have possibly suggested to him.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    rhetorical flourish notwithstanding, SFB still has enough cash to afford decent lawyers. and decent lawyers would have told him to STFU and not do a bunch of things he did. and would have likely told him to plead out.
r0ckarong 3y ago
There is nothing more enticing than the smell of money. You don't need charisma. You need the air of "get you rich". That's it.
Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. Prosecution have stated that they haven’t offered SBF a plea deal, so what incentive does he have to make their job any easier?

by bmitc 3y ago

xwolfi 3y ago

Perjury* Sam is highly charismatic, especially when all you want to hear is that you send 2000$ and will receive 100k$ if only you listen to him and use his product. He's part of the mumbo jumbo guru crowd. I'm a programmer in finance: I understand nothing when SBF talks, it's like complete random BS, totally different from the traders I work with who would use complex concepts but with always a visible thread: utility -> transformation adding value -> profit, with SBF it's all so fuzzy and unclear, it's like he pretends to talk like we're idiots to hide the fact he's the idiot who forgot that you need to sacrifice potential upside for downside insurance...

bmitc 3y ago
I personally never found him charismatic at all, even before all of this got exposed. He has always seemed like a tweaker who thought himself smarter than he is, which is exactly what he turned out to be. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone would listen to him for any length of time.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  What if he paid you to listen? You know, hypothetically speaking
  - kristofferg 3y ago
    Asking for a friend?
  - hfuyf65 3y ago
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozjiX1E7ZA&pp=ygUTc2JmIGludGVydmlldyAyMDIwIA%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozjiX1E7ZA&pp=ygUTc2JmIGludGV... Picked an interview ar random. He is not charismatic, but he can talk like so many banking VPs talk ( almost no substance ). This may have helped him make people part with money.
    - dilyevsky 3y ago
      Isn’t VP typically an entry level employee at a bank? If so, I would agree. He clearly doesn’t know when to stfu, he’s gonna get 30 to life
nullc 3y ago
> I'm a programmer in finance: I understand nothing when SBF talks, it's like complete random BS, totally different from the traders I work with who would use complex concepts but with always a visible thread: utility -> transformation adding value -> profit, with SBF it's all so fuzzy and unclear, it's like he pretends to talk like we're idiots to hide the fact he's the idiot who forgot that you need to sacrifice potential upside for downside insurance... It appears that there is a sizable audience who will hear that and conclude he's a subject matter super genius and that you're a total idiot.
- Melting_Harps 3y ago
  > It appears that there is a sizable audience who will hear that and conclude he's a subject matter super genius and that you're a total idiot. Many of them the titans of SV no less, Sequoia being chief among them; honestly, I called this imbecile being in jail in mid-late '21 when he announced he was going to start influencing US politics. He was an idiot then and he has proven himself and even greater one with time. Likely mentally ill, as well. I do want to underscore that this scammer would have NEVER gotten the chance he had were it not for the connections his family has at Stanford, and thus VC, and the litany of connections that followed. This article is a must read [0], as were the testimonies given by gyus like Scarmocci (I'm not going to correct his name), because it all boils down to the fact that he was the child of privilisge and connected to all the power-brokers in SV. SBF, FTX and Alameda is and will always remain a a Silicon Valley VC backed cluster***, and it must be noted that this has nothing to do with us and everything to do with THEM. > Silicon Valley could be said to be in the business of reality distortion. Fundraising for startups can be as much about narrative as about economic fundamentals. Most venture capital portfolios are filled with companies that will fail because their model is wrong, their product won’t land, their vision of the future won’t pan out. The high dropout rate means that everyone is in search of the one thing that will reach escape velocity. Everyone is looking for an epochal success—a Steve Jobs, a Jeff Bezos. That creates a degree of hunger—even desperation—that can be exploited by someone who arrives with a great story at the right moment. 0: https://www.wired.com/story/why-silicon-valley-falls-for-frauds/ https://www.wired.com/story/why-silicon-valley-falls-for-fra...

chubot 3y ago

It's also funny to me that they just use Github and Google docs. It seems like if you were committing massive fraud, you'd want to avoid leaving permanent records of it on someone else's systems. But I think this is generational thing. If you grew up when web browsers were already prevalent, a "text file on your hard drive" probably means almost nothing. It's just not the way you use computers. I also like this bit from the article: Note to self: if you’re going to write code to do fraud, make it messy and unreadable to reduce the chances it’s later put in front of a jury as evidence.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I mean, the reason the fraud looks so brazen now is because they were obviously true believers - they never expected to get caught. If crypto had gone up and up and up forever as intended, the fraud would never have been discovered. Of course, the other possibility is that at least having this amount of visible paper trail was intentional - the CTO probably had a little voice in the back of his head going "Umm, maybe committing multi-billion dollar fraud is a bad idea...", but the GitHub history probably helps him more than it hurts now, at the expense of SBF.
- SilasX 3y ago
  I made an earlier comment explaining it as SBF coming to believe that his tricks kept working so consistently that he regarded them as some kind of fundamental aspect of reality, that he could always find another investor to give him a reprieve, he could always find another sucker to buy FTT at an inflated value (sorry, “exit liquidity”). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33973023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33973023
- bmitc 3y ago
  > If crypto had gone up and up and up forever as intended, the fraud would never have been discovered. I'm not sure of that. When you need an account's credit limit set to $65 billion because the account (Alameda Research) kept hitting the credit limit, something is seriously, seriously wrong irrespective of the state of crypto. It seems like they were inevitably going to fail hard. FTX was literally allowing Alameda Research to trade with make believe money. Some of the major traditional brokers will just up and close your account permanently if you abuse, even within their already strict rulesets, their margin accounts.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. Would easily bet that was his decision. He's obviously made insanely stupid choices already, like leaking Caroline Ellison's journal and getting his bail revoked. I'm sure he was counseled against it, but his lawyers were probably like "well, he wants to swing the bat, and we get paid more if it goes to trial anyway."

bmitc 3y ago
It becomes more and more clear that he's just a sociopathic idiot, sort of like Miles Bron from The Glass Onion. I wonder how off his rocker he is from drug use.
heylook 3y ago
>> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. >Would easily bet that was his decision. That's a tautology. His decision to plead not-guilty is literally his decision.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  it's obvious the parent comment means that he was counseled against it and decided to do it anyway because he's just like that.
- phoe-krk 3y ago
  His decision - as opposed to what his lawyers could have possibly suggested to him.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  rhetorical flourish notwithstanding, SFB still has enough cash to afford decent lawyers. and decent lawyers would have told him to STFU and not do a bunch of things he did. and would have likely told him to plead out.

r0ckarong 3y ago

There is nothing more enticing than the smell of money. You don't need charisma. You need the air of "get you rich". That's it.

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago

> Pretty insane that Sam Bankman-Fried decided to plead not-guilty. Prosecution have stated that they haven’t offered SBF a plea deal, so what incentive does he have to make their job any easier?