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The plan to demilitarize Gaza together with Egypt, Syria, Saudis (2014)

4 points by EGreg 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago
This was considered at the highest levels in Israel in 2014. Netanyahu spoke explicitly about the goal of partial demilitarization. “We agreed to the Egyptian proposal in order to give an opportunity for the demilitarization of the [Gaza] Strip — from missiles, from rockets and from tunnels — through diplomatic means,” he said in a statement. What happened? Why does Israel always go it alone? All the collateral damage and civilian deaths build up until they squander any sympathy support they have. This is Israel’s 9/11. After 9/11 the US had a lot of international sympathy and even invoked Article 5 of NATO and formed a coalition before invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. (They ended up squandering all the good will they had, occupying afghanistan for 20 years, invading Iraq and causing 1 million excess deaths… but for a while there the coalition-building effort paid off.) Why not speak at the UN and build a coalition to engage Hamas together? Urban warfare is not easy and civilian casualties have a way of shifting public opinion. Take a look at how Azov went from being branded terrorists to national heroes after Mariupol. By sharing responsibility as a coalition, it would be harder for Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and others to justify attacking Israel. Israel’s government could avoid escalation and safeguard Israeli civilians. Why do they somehow always go it alone, and get all the blame alone?
- catlover76 3y ago
  Because they do not get their share of the blame, and the notion that they can plausibly squander goodwill in any Western country aside from maybe Ireland is a fantasy. Terrorist organizations like Hamas simply help them along in this regard; their attacks only provide further justification for military action. Very few in the West think critically about whether Israel's actions are proportionate. For example, their blockade of Gaza includes food--is there any other country that can get away with starving children in retaliation for a terrorist attack? > By sharing responsibility as a coalition, it would be harder for Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and others to justify attacking Israel. There is no rationality or sense or good faith to the actions of those actors either. Ultimately, I think they likely believe Israel's existence to be sufficient justification for violence, which is of course simply unreasonable and not a workable basis for the fantasy of diplomatic or peaceful resolution to this conflict.
  - EGreg 3y ago
    Yes, other countries not only starve children after a terrorist attack but bomb them (Syria bombing Yarmouk, or razing entire villages) kidnap them and place in reeducation camps for years (China with Uyghurs) etc. It is all horrific stuff. But even if Israel wants to go scorched earth on Gaza, why not bring friends? Why not have Egypt invade from the rafah crossing side and share the blame? Even from the perspective of not giving Hezbollah and Syria and Iran an excuse, and safeguarding Israeli lives, why not accept help? It’s not like the terrorusts are going anywhere, they’re trapped! I want to know what happened to the proposals that neighboring countries have advanced in 2014 and why Israel always goes it alone. The more I observe politics during wartime the more shocked I am at the apparent sheer stupidity of the politicians. Is Hanlon’s razors appropriate here?
    - raincom 3y ago
      Egypt will never invade Gaza, as Egypt doesn't want Gaza strip (both land and people living in that strip). Egypt doesn't want to transform Palestinian problems into Egyptian problems. Egypt will get the blame for Hamas' actions.
      - noduerme 3y ago
        >> After the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government in 1959, under the excuse of pan-Arabism, Egypt continued to occupy the Gaza Strip until 1967. Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip Gee, why don't they want it, or its citizens, or to open the border now? The border was open a couple years ago. Oh, wait. Gaza elected Hamas, who backed the Muslim Brotherhood, who sent terrorists to overthrow the Egyptian government. Hey - how come the "Palestinian refugee camps" in Jordan and Lebanon are full of the grandchildren of people who can never and will never be allowed visas or allowed to work in those countries? The "Palestinians" exist only as a bullshit made-up group of Arabic people who the countries all around Israel refuse to accept into their population, and instead preferred to use as a lever for international support. Preferred being the key word here. Now that it is no longer to their benefit, they have no more interest in the Palestinian "cause". But they can't integrate and make citizens the Palestinians or else they would be admitting a large group of terrorists [strike that; Extremely angry and misled people] to their already fractious / fragile societies. The Palestinians are left as a permanently used sub-class in all other Arab countries.
- noduerme 3y ago
  To be perfectly frank: The world has an extremely short memory, and Israel is the only country that seems concerned about placating it. Three days after 260 unarmed people were murdered tree-to-tree in a festival, the dominant headline in the West is that some bad things might happen to the people who committed the massacre. Yet: The "west" is already willing to make terms with the Taliban or the Assad regime or China while they still massacre civilians in Xinjian. Or send $6Bn to Iran days after it slaughtered protesters. It's not precisely that Israel is too timid, it's that Israel does actually care about human rights more than the supposed human rights champions who they can never possible please. That is what Hamas has interpreted to be Israel's weakness, and they are right. I don't want to see any deaths of civilians in Gaza. But Israel needs to accept the reality that the world will never like them. The world found plenty of reasons to hate Jews before Israel existed, and they will always find reasons. To survive, you don't need to ask permission. The only course of action is to terminate Hamas completely, regardless of civilian cost, while trying to maintain whatever level of humanity is possible. You cannot respond to this with anything less than obliteration of the regime that authorized it; and if that extends to Iran, then so be it.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    >To survive, you don't need to ask permission. The only course of action is to terminate Hamas completely, regardless of civilian cost, while trying to maintain whatever level of humanity is possible. You cannot respond to this with anything less than obliteration of the regime that authorized it; and if that extends to Iran, then so be it. You dont need permission to survive, but if they act without restraint or proportionality, countries will find their friends turning to enemies, and that they have become worse that those they fight. There is no way to terminate Hamas completely, because it feeds on Palestinian resentment and Israeli violence. Why do you think it attacked- Its not like they had a chance or even a plan of holding territory. The only way to obliterate Hamas completely would be for Israel round up every Palestinian in Gaza and put them in gas chambers, then go after the diaspora.
    - noduerme 3y ago
      I don't think Hamas attacked out of hopelessness. And I don't think they had no plan. Hamas's goal is the total destruction of Israel, removal or death of all Jews, and (their) fundamentalist Islamic rule over the "river to the sea". None of that is required for a successful Palestinian national movement. Certainly it's not the aspiration of every Palestinian in Gaza, who are largely more oppressed by Hamas than they are by Israel on the daily. But Hamas does have a plan. You're missing it, because it's based on an absurd belief of theirs. They believe that if they can make living in Israel too scary and too costly, the Jews will leave. That's what this is about. The funny thing is, the Arabs actually have somewhere else to conceivable go (i.e. the country of Palestine, which is called Jordan). The Jews do not. But when you look at the attack from this perspective, you see the logic of the attack - and of filming their own crimes for maximum terror.

4 points by EGreg 3y ago

This was considered at the highest levels in Israel in 2014. Netanyahu spoke explicitly about the goal of partial demilitarization. “We agreed to the Egyptian proposal in order to give an opportunity for the demilitarization of the [Gaza] Strip — from missiles, from rockets and from tunnels — through diplomatic means,” he said in a statement. What happened? Why does Israel always go it alone? All the collateral damage and civilian deaths build up until they squander any sympathy support they have. This is Israel’s 9/11. After 9/11 the US had a lot of international sympathy and even invoked Article 5 of NATO and formed a coalition before invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. (They ended up squandering all the good will they had, occupying afghanistan for 20 years, invading Iraq and causing 1 million excess deaths… but for a while there the coalition-building effort paid off.) Why not speak at the UN and build a coalition to engage Hamas together? Urban warfare is not easy and civilian casualties have a way of shifting public opinion. Take a look at how Azov went from being branded terrorists to national heroes after Mariupol. By sharing responsibility as a coalition, it would be harder for Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and others to justify attacking Israel. Israel’s government could avoid escalation and safeguard Israeli civilians. Why do they somehow always go it alone, and get all the blame alone?

catlover76 3y ago
Because they do not get their share of the blame, and the notion that they can plausibly squander goodwill in any Western country aside from maybe Ireland is a fantasy. Terrorist organizations like Hamas simply help them along in this regard; their attacks only provide further justification for military action. Very few in the West think critically about whether Israel's actions are proportionate. For example, their blockade of Gaza includes food--is there any other country that can get away with starving children in retaliation for a terrorist attack? > By sharing responsibility as a coalition, it would be harder for Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and others to justify attacking Israel. There is no rationality or sense or good faith to the actions of those actors either. Ultimately, I think they likely believe Israel's existence to be sufficient justification for violence, which is of course simply unreasonable and not a workable basis for the fantasy of diplomatic or peaceful resolution to this conflict.
- EGreg 3y ago
  Yes, other countries not only starve children after a terrorist attack but bomb them (Syria bombing Yarmouk, or razing entire villages) kidnap them and place in reeducation camps for years (China with Uyghurs) etc. It is all horrific stuff. But even if Israel wants to go scorched earth on Gaza, why not bring friends? Why not have Egypt invade from the rafah crossing side and share the blame? Even from the perspective of not giving Hezbollah and Syria and Iran an excuse, and safeguarding Israeli lives, why not accept help? It’s not like the terrorusts are going anywhere, they’re trapped! I want to know what happened to the proposals that neighboring countries have advanced in 2014 and why Israel always goes it alone. The more I observe politics during wartime the more shocked I am at the apparent sheer stupidity of the politicians. Is Hanlon’s razors appropriate here?
  - raincom 3y ago
    Egypt will never invade Gaza, as Egypt doesn't want Gaza strip (both land and people living in that strip). Egypt doesn't want to transform Palestinian problems into Egyptian problems. Egypt will get the blame for Hamas' actions.
    - noduerme 3y ago
      >> After the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government in 1959, under the excuse of pan-Arabism, Egypt continued to occupy the Gaza Strip until 1967. Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip Gee, why don't they want it, or its citizens, or to open the border now? The border was open a couple years ago. Oh, wait. Gaza elected Hamas, who backed the Muslim Brotherhood, who sent terrorists to overthrow the Egyptian government. Hey - how come the "Palestinian refugee camps" in Jordan and Lebanon are full of the grandchildren of people who can never and will never be allowed visas or allowed to work in those countries? The "Palestinians" exist only as a bullshit made-up group of Arabic people who the countries all around Israel refuse to accept into their population, and instead preferred to use as a lever for international support. Preferred being the key word here. Now that it is no longer to their benefit, they have no more interest in the Palestinian "cause". But they can't integrate and make citizens the Palestinians or else they would be admitting a large group of terrorists [strike that; Extremely angry and misled people] to their already fractious / fragile societies. The Palestinians are left as a permanently used sub-class in all other Arab countries.
noduerme 3y ago
To be perfectly frank: The world has an extremely short memory, and Israel is the only country that seems concerned about placating it. Three days after 260 unarmed people were murdered tree-to-tree in a festival, the dominant headline in the West is that some bad things might happen to the people who committed the massacre. Yet: The "west" is already willing to make terms with the Taliban or the Assad regime or China while they still massacre civilians in Xinjian. Or send $6Bn to Iran days after it slaughtered protesters. It's not precisely that Israel is too timid, it's that Israel does actually care about human rights more than the supposed human rights champions who they can never possible please. That is what Hamas has interpreted to be Israel's weakness, and they are right. I don't want to see any deaths of civilians in Gaza. But Israel needs to accept the reality that the world will never like them. The world found plenty of reasons to hate Jews before Israel existed, and they will always find reasons. To survive, you don't need to ask permission. The only course of action is to terminate Hamas completely, regardless of civilian cost, while trying to maintain whatever level of humanity is possible. You cannot respond to this with anything less than obliteration of the regime that authorized it; and if that extends to Iran, then so be it.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  >To survive, you don't need to ask permission. The only course of action is to terminate Hamas completely, regardless of civilian cost, while trying to maintain whatever level of humanity is possible. You cannot respond to this with anything less than obliteration of the regime that authorized it; and if that extends to Iran, then so be it. You dont need permission to survive, but if they act without restraint or proportionality, countries will find their friends turning to enemies, and that they have become worse that those they fight. There is no way to terminate Hamas completely, because it feeds on Palestinian resentment and Israeli violence. Why do you think it attacked- Its not like they had a chance or even a plan of holding territory. The only way to obliterate Hamas completely would be for Israel round up every Palestinian in Gaza and put them in gas chambers, then go after the diaspora.
  - noduerme 3y ago
    I don't think Hamas attacked out of hopelessness. And I don't think they had no plan. Hamas's goal is the total destruction of Israel, removal or death of all Jews, and (their) fundamentalist Islamic rule over the "river to the sea". None of that is required for a successful Palestinian national movement. Certainly it's not the aspiration of every Palestinian in Gaza, who are largely more oppressed by Hamas than they are by Israel on the daily. But Hamas does have a plan. You're missing it, because it's based on an absurd belief of theirs. They believe that if they can make living in Israel too scary and too costly, the Jews will leave. That's what this is about. The funny thing is, the Arabs actually have somewhere else to conceivable go (i.e. the country of Palestine, which is called Jordan). The Jews do not. But when you look at the attack from this perspective, you see the logic of the attack - and of filming their own crimes for maximum terror.