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> First of all, any company operating out of China can be assumed to be under more or less direct control of the CCP. Statements like that really make me quest

> First of all, any company operating out of China can be assumed to be under more or less direct control of the CCP. Statements like that really make me question people's knowledge of basic history and international politics. Yes, a nation's major commercial actors often work in conjecture with their government. Is this news to anyone? This is not unique to China in the least. > The second difference/risk comes with looking whom these apps target: kids. And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

usernomdeguerre 3y ago
if he had directed it as "Think of the adults" would you feel differently? It seems silly to say that propaganda/news/information has no influence on people when we demonstrate that it does every single day of our lives.
mschuster91 3y ago
> Statements like that really make me question people's knowledge of basic history and international politics. Yes, a nation's major commercial actors often work in conjecture with their government There's a difference between cooperating with the government - my country, Germany, is infamous for the close webs between government and its car companies - but there is no chain of command (other than a partial stake that Lower Saxony holds in VW) between the industry and politics. If anything, it's the other way around, companies pay a shitload in "party donations" to have the government represent its interest in the EU and abroad. > And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children A lot of TOTC is bullshit and usually pulled for the ulterior motive of (effectively) banning stuff for adults by imposing obscene obstacles (such as the planned EU chat control, or British anti-porn legislation). But here, it's aimed squarely at adolescents who use Tiktok as their most popular news source [1] - no matter what, that IS dangerous. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/20/tiktok-is-the-most-popular-news-source-for-12-to-15-year-olds-says-ofcom https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/20/tiktok-is...
kurthr 3y ago
That's pretty funny. TikTok is literally banned in China, along with Facebook, YouTube and all Google, Wikipedia, Twitter, and even Github. There is an actual firewall blocking access, the use of a non-government controlled VPN is a crime. Your iCloud must be stored in China. If you see a post on any social media outlet other than Weibo/WeChat/DouYen/TenCent (which are heavily censored), they are under gov control. This is true even in HK. See the disappearance of Naomi Wu or Peng Shuai.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Yes, China is a nation that bans thing and censors things, something that in America we at least used to pretend was un-American. Are you taking them for a role model? Or just pointing out the hypocrisy? Either way, I do not intend to learn lessons on governance from the CCP.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    Are you a "free speech absolutist" with all the connotations that has? The users of TikTok seem to be learning from the same group you intend to avoid. If controlling narrative through disinfo and agitprop have no effect, why is advertising so profitable? Do you not think social media can be tuned to optimize viewing time? Why would you want people learning that censorship or misinformation from an authoritarian foreign power is good? What fraction of total media time do you think 12-18yo spend on TikTok? Should the goal be to create a repressive dictatorship here? In any case, comparing the level of control of "major commercial actors often work in conjecture with their government" sounds awfully stretched.
  - usernomdeguerre 3y ago
    The prisoner's dilemma would indicate that when the other player 'defects' you should retaliate. Not that I like that outcome, but it seems pretty ironclad.
Clubber 3y ago
>And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children This was used during my childhood by the Reagan (and subsequent) administration as justification for cracking down on the drug war and leading us closer to a police state, skirting constitutional rights, etc. Of course the children they were supposedly protecting got arrested for smoking pot and underage drinking and whatnot, damaging their lives and future outlook, sometimes significantly.
paganel 3y ago
On top of that, I think that Alphabet-owned YouTube is just as bad for kids as TikTok is, if not worse, I haven't heard a serious proposal coming from any Western government to ban YT for that reason.
digging 3y ago
> And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children That doesn't mean that threats to the well-being of children don't actually exist. Your blanket rejection is no better than the insincere use of TOTC.

usernomdeguerre 3y ago

if he had directed it as "Think of the adults" would you feel differently? It seems silly to say that propaganda/news/information has no influence on people when we demonstrate that it does every single day of our lives.

mschuster91 3y ago

> Statements like that really make me question people's knowledge of basic history and international politics. Yes, a nation's major commercial actors often work in conjecture with their government There's a difference between cooperating with the government - my country, Germany, is infamous for the close webs between government and its car companies - but there is no chain of command (other than a partial stake that Lower Saxony holds in VW) between the industry and politics. If anything, it's the other way around, companies pay a shitload in "party donations" to have the government represent its interest in the EU and abroad. > And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children A lot of TOTC is bullshit and usually pulled for the ulterior motive of (effectively) banning stuff for adults by imposing obscene obstacles (such as the planned EU chat control, or British anti-porn legislation). But here, it's aimed squarely at adolescents who use Tiktok as their most popular news source [1] - no matter what, that IS dangerous. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/20/tiktok-is-the-most-popular-news-source-for-12-to-15-year-olds-says-ofcom https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/20/tiktok-is...

kurthr 3y ago

That's pretty funny. TikTok is literally banned in China, along with Facebook, YouTube and all Google, Wikipedia, Twitter, and even Github. There is an actual firewall blocking access, the use of a non-government controlled VPN is a crime. Your iCloud must be stored in China. If you see a post on any social media outlet other than Weibo/WeChat/DouYen/TenCent (which are heavily censored), they are under gov control. This is true even in HK. See the disappearance of Naomi Wu or Peng Shuai.

standardUser 3y ago
Yes, China is a nation that bans thing and censors things, something that in America we at least used to pretend was un-American. Are you taking them for a role model? Or just pointing out the hypocrisy? Either way, I do not intend to learn lessons on governance from the CCP.
- kurthr 3y ago
  Are you a "free speech absolutist" with all the connotations that has? The users of TikTok seem to be learning from the same group you intend to avoid. If controlling narrative through disinfo and agitprop have no effect, why is advertising so profitable? Do you not think social media can be tuned to optimize viewing time? Why would you want people learning that censorship or misinformation from an authoritarian foreign power is good? What fraction of total media time do you think 12-18yo spend on TikTok? Should the goal be to create a repressive dictatorship here? In any case, comparing the level of control of "major commercial actors often work in conjecture with their government" sounds awfully stretched.
- usernomdeguerre 3y ago
  The prisoner's dilemma would indicate that when the other player 'defects' you should retaliate. Not that I like that outcome, but it seems pretty ironclad.

Clubber 3y ago

>And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children This was used during my childhood by the Reagan (and subsequent) administration as justification for cracking down on the drug war and leading us closer to a police state, skirting constitutional rights, etc. Of course the children they were supposedly protecting got arrested for smoking pot and underage drinking and whatnot, damaging their lives and future outlook, sometimes significantly.

paganel 3y ago

On top of that, I think that Alphabet-owned YouTube is just as bad for kids as TikTok is, if not worse, I haven't heard a serious proposal coming from any Western government to ban YT for that reason.

digging 3y ago

> And this argument is so tired that it even has its own Wikipedia page explaining that it is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children That doesn't mean that threats to the well-being of children don't actually exist. Your blanket rejection is no better than the insincere use of TOTC.