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I often notice comments made regarding ancient or historical locations and civilisations, when discussed by a historian in a documentary, often seem to be opini

I often notice comments made regarding ancient or historical locations and civilisations, when discussed by a historian in a documentary, often seem to be opinions based on pretty flimsy evidence. In some cases no evidence at all, just things could be likely maybe possibly. Relying on the fact that there's no written evidence for or against any claim.

bobthepanda 3y ago
Even if there is written evidence, nearly all past written information is also difficult to verify, and writers in the past were not necessarily unbiased or above lying and distortion.
kibwen 3y ago
According to the OP, there is written evidence for it, from the Victorian era, which was 400 years after cannons made castles obsolete. It's hard to fault modern historians too much if they're simply trusting the old records to be accurate. Or as we say in computer science: garbage in, garbage out.
- pmichaud 3y ago
  > It's hard to fault modern historians too much if they're simply trusting the old records to be accurate. Basically the entire job of a historian is to determine the credibility of old sources, so they can interpret all the data and come to the most accurate conclusion about what happened.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 221qqwe 3y ago
    > credibility of old sources Unsubstantiated conjecture by Victorian historians shouldn't really be treated as a "source" in the first place by actual historians.
- gwern 3y ago
  If you click through, you can see there's no 'evidence' there. He simply offhandedly, in a sentence or two, makes the same speculation about fighting, with no sources, and the whole discussion of staircases in general is based on only 2 named examples. Chesterton's fence is satisfied: he knew no more than we did.
- JdeBP 3y ago
  A few points. Theodore Andrea Cook wasn't a historian. Xe was a writer for the Daily Telegraph, amongst other things, who wrote about sports such as fencing and rowing; and who was also an art critic. Theodore Andrea Cook wasn't writing in the Victorian Era. _Spirals in Nature and Art_ was a 20th century work, in the Edwardian Era. _The Curves of Life_ was from the subsequent Georgian Era. Theodore Andrea Cook is the earliest person found espousing this hypothesis. This is, as far as anyone has determined, Theodore Andrea Cook's own original hypothesis, based upon zero evidence. That is certainly what the text of _Spirals_ implies.
wnissen 3y ago
Yes, it would take not just a real historian, but someone who had done research, to answer this question. Having been up and down a few of those, it certainly seems more than just plausible to me, even taking into account the numerous recorded sieges. On the other hand it is also true that spears and shields play a much greater role than swords. Hard to imagine wielding a full-sized shield, let alone a spear, in one of those staircases, though!
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  I think the bigger point from the article is that by the time people are fighting hand-to-hand in the tower stairwells, the defenders have already well and truly lost: comeback from such a state was probably impossible (and if the walls were breached the defenders would almost certainly have surrendered rather than fought to the last man). So it wouldn't have really made sense to design things for this possibility.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    This comment is a perfect example of GGP's problem with historical analysis. As is the nearly-exactly comment in TFA: > Frankly, if you find yourself in this position the castle is probably already lost. It's conjecture all the way down.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > It's conjecture Just like the entire staircase argument? Except that we actually know that: > Frankly, if you find yourself in this position the castle is probably already lost. Was true in almost all cases.
  - ramblenode 3y ago
    That's not a good counter-explanation. A castle staircase takes a lot of time and effort to build. Choosing to build the staircase in one direction or the other has negligible cost. If there is even a slight or possible advantage to one direction then it would make sense to build it that way. Defense in depth.
duxup 3y ago
I love me some history information, documentaries, and etc. But yeah I get strongly allergic to stuff where suddenly I wonder "Wait did you just logic that out in your head? Like there's no basis for that other than you observing how the thing / situation is?" I'm sure it has been an issue forever but online especially it seems painful how much of that information there is.
- alexpotato 3y ago
  My favorite version of the logic it out: "People asked me if this tribe was originally from this area or if they migrated here. I always say: clearly they were from here. The weather is so bad around these parts, who would choose to move here from somewhere else?" - German historian
groestl 3y ago
Along these lines, a well established rule in Archaeology: "Was man nicht erklären kann, sieht man gleich als kultisch an" (what cannot be explained, is immediately perceived as religious)
- pc86 3y ago
  "That is either an incense dispenser, or a ceremonial ... sarcophagus." "My German is pre-industrial, and mostly religious."
watwut 3y ago
You expect pop documentaries to contain evidence? I do not mean it as snark, it is just that evidence is something popular entertainment ia not even supposed to have.
catlover76 3y ago
A lot like evolutionary psychology; it seems like a reasonable explanation or story and is supported by at least some circumstantial evidence, so it must have been the way things were
deleted 3y ago
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bobthepanda 3y ago

Even if there is written evidence, nearly all past written information is also difficult to verify, and writers in the past were not necessarily unbiased or above lying and distortion.

kibwen 3y ago

According to the OP, there is written evidence for it, from the Victorian era, which was 400 years after cannons made castles obsolete. It's hard to fault modern historians too much if they're simply trusting the old records to be accurate. Or as we say in computer science: garbage in, garbage out.

pmichaud 3y ago
> It's hard to fault modern historians too much if they're simply trusting the old records to be accurate. Basically the entire job of a historian is to determine the credibility of old sources, so they can interpret all the data and come to the most accurate conclusion about what happened.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 221qqwe 3y ago
  > credibility of old sources Unsubstantiated conjecture by Victorian historians shouldn't really be treated as a "source" in the first place by actual historians.
gwern 3y ago
If you click through, you can see there's no 'evidence' there. He simply offhandedly, in a sentence or two, makes the same speculation about fighting, with no sources, and the whole discussion of staircases in general is based on only 2 named examples. Chesterton's fence is satisfied: he knew no more than we did.
JdeBP 3y ago
A few points. Theodore Andrea Cook wasn't a historian. Xe was a writer for the Daily Telegraph, amongst other things, who wrote about sports such as fencing and rowing; and who was also an art critic. Theodore Andrea Cook wasn't writing in the Victorian Era. _Spirals in Nature and Art_ was a 20th century work, in the Edwardian Era. _The Curves of Life_ was from the subsequent Georgian Era. Theodore Andrea Cook is the earliest person found espousing this hypothesis. This is, as far as anyone has determined, Theodore Andrea Cook's own original hypothesis, based upon zero evidence. That is certainly what the text of _Spirals_ implies.

wnissen 3y ago

Yes, it would take not just a real historian, but someone who had done research, to answer this question. Having been up and down a few of those, it certainly seems more than just plausible to me, even taking into account the numerous recorded sieges. On the other hand it is also true that spears and shields play a much greater role than swords. Hard to imagine wielding a full-sized shield, let alone a spear, in one of those staircases, though!

Analemma_ 3y ago
I think the bigger point from the article is that by the time people are fighting hand-to-hand in the tower stairwells, the defenders have already well and truly lost: comeback from such a state was probably impossible (and if the walls were breached the defenders would almost certainly have surrendered rather than fought to the last man). So it wouldn't have really made sense to design things for this possibility.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  This comment is a perfect example of GGP's problem with historical analysis. As is the nearly-exactly comment in TFA: > Frankly, if you find yourself in this position the castle is probably already lost. It's conjecture all the way down.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > It's conjecture Just like the entire staircase argument? Except that we actually know that: > Frankly, if you find yourself in this position the castle is probably already lost. Was true in almost all cases.
- ramblenode 3y ago
  That's not a good counter-explanation. A castle staircase takes a lot of time and effort to build. Choosing to build the staircase in one direction or the other has negligible cost. If there is even a slight or possible advantage to one direction then it would make sense to build it that way. Defense in depth.

duxup 3y ago

I love me some history information, documentaries, and etc. But yeah I get strongly allergic to stuff where suddenly I wonder "Wait did you just logic that out in your head? Like there's no basis for that other than you observing how the thing / situation is?" I'm sure it has been an issue forever but online especially it seems painful how much of that information there is.

alexpotato 3y ago
My favorite version of the logic it out: "People asked me if this tribe was originally from this area or if they migrated here. I always say: clearly they were from here. The weather is so bad around these parts, who would choose to move here from somewhere else?" - German historian

groestl 3y ago

Along these lines, a well established rule in Archaeology: "Was man nicht erklären kann, sieht man gleich als kultisch an" (what cannot be explained, is immediately perceived as religious)

pc86 3y ago
"That is either an incense dispenser, or a ceremonial ... sarcophagus." "My German is pre-industrial, and mostly religious."

watwut 3y ago

You expect pop documentaries to contain evidence? I do not mean it as snark, it is just that evidence is something popular entertainment ia not even supposed to have.

catlover76 3y ago

A lot like evolutionary psychology; it seems like a reasonable explanation or story and is supported by at least some circumstantial evidence, so it must have been the way things were

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]