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Philosophically, if those services deteriorate beyond repair and are riff with corruption/nepotism, the people have the right to object, by any means necessary.

Philosophically, if those services deteriorate beyond repair and are riff with corruption/nepotism, the people have the right to object, by any means necessary. The efficiency of our tax dollars, in the US at least, is prob very low. I wonder for every $1 of tax revenue collected, how much of that is used for actual public good. 20%?

louthy 3y ago
> Philosophically, if those services deteriorate beyond repair and are riff with corruption/nepotism, the people have the right to object, by any means necessary. Is that a taxation problem or a corruption problem? Fix the corruption first.
- Eumenes 3y ago
  Excessive capital in the hands of centralized government breeds corruption. They get to send $100s of millions, sometimes billions, to corporations and foreign nations. This leads to bribery and kickbacks. The US has people in government who are worth $100s of millions of dollars off salaries that would be entry level in Silicon Valley.
  - louthy 3y ago
    > This leads to bribery and kickback Which is illegal in most countries. Police the illegality (you probably need a well funded police force for that) and the corruption will reduce significantly. It’s true that not all corruption can be stopped. But if you think privatising everything will make your dollars more efficient then you’re living in a fantasy world. Look at the mess that is the US healthcare system for a start: twice as expensive as every other country’s healthcare system and certainly not the best
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      > Police the illegality (you probably need a well funded police force for that) and the corruption will reduce significantly. How do you bootstrap non-corrupt police/prosecutors/judges/legislators to fight corruption, and how do you prevent the corrupt system from corrupting those people as well? If fighting corruption is so straight forward as merely giving money to police and telling them to enforce laws, then why do most countries around the world fail at it? Surely it's not for want of somebody having the idea to simply enforce anti-corruption laws. The idea is easy, but the idea is not the solution itself. And I do mean most. Look at this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/media/File:Countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index_(2022).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/... Several of the countries colored green on that map are generally acknowledged to be pretty damn corrupt, yet most are even worse.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    The US does have many rich people in government, but it's not accurate to suggest that they got rich by being part of the government. Rather, the cost of running electoral campaigns is so high that it selects for people who are already rich from private enterprise (with highly variable degrees of legitimacy). You are putting the cart before the horse, although it is also true that members of Congress are largely exempted from insider trading rules and thus some of them further exploit their position (vs handing their wealth over to a trust administered by some neutral third party). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the...
  - lawlessone 3y ago
    > The US has people in government who are worth $100s of millions of dollars off salaries that would be entry level in Silicon Valley. That's a good argument to pay them more. If we paid politicians nothing the only people that would be politicians would be those wealthy enough to pursue it as a hobby
    - TMWNN 3y ago
      My understanding is that this is the rationale for Singapore's very high government salaries: To attract the best and brightest to public service.
    - Eumenes 3y ago
      I think its a good argument to arrest anyone whose betrayed their oath of office
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  How do you fix corruption without cutting off the money feeding/rewarding it?
danpalmer 3y ago
That seems like an implementation issue rather than a philosophical issue? Tax could be spent with high efficiency, and is in other countries with less bureaucracy and corruption. I wouldn't throw out the idea of income tax because the US happens to have a poor system. The same could be said for democracy, the US having a fairly poor implementation, but no one is seriously suggesting the US stop being a democracy.
- Eumenes 3y ago
  I'd prefer to defund the federal government and focus on local/regional systems. I'm much more likely to support my neighbor and local communities over putting 20-30% of my income to be divided up in Washington, 1000s of miles away.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    The emotional attachment you're talking about is certainly true. This is why supposedly systems of government work best around ~8m citizens. Perhaps a local income tax would work better? Property/land taxes can also be locally administered and skew towards those who can afford it rather than those who can't.

louthy 3y ago

> Philosophically, if those services deteriorate beyond repair and are riff with corruption/nepotism, the people have the right to object, by any means necessary. Is that a taxation problem or a corruption problem? Fix the corruption first.

Eumenes 3y ago
Excessive capital in the hands of centralized government breeds corruption. They get to send $100s of millions, sometimes billions, to corporations and foreign nations. This leads to bribery and kickbacks. The US has people in government who are worth $100s of millions of dollars off salaries that would be entry level in Silicon Valley.
- louthy 3y ago
  > This leads to bribery and kickback Which is illegal in most countries. Police the illegality (you probably need a well funded police force for that) and the corruption will reduce significantly. It’s true that not all corruption can be stopped. But if you think privatising everything will make your dollars more efficient then you’re living in a fantasy world. Look at the mess that is the US healthcare system for a start: twice as expensive as every other country’s healthcare system and certainly not the best
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    > Police the illegality (you probably need a well funded police force for that) and the corruption will reduce significantly. How do you bootstrap non-corrupt police/prosecutors/judges/legislators to fight corruption, and how do you prevent the corrupt system from corrupting those people as well? If fighting corruption is so straight forward as merely giving money to police and telling them to enforce laws, then why do most countries around the world fail at it? Surely it's not for want of somebody having the idea to simply enforce anti-corruption laws. The idea is easy, but the idea is not the solution itself. And I do mean most. Look at this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/media/File:Countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index_(2022).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/... Several of the countries colored green on that map are generally acknowledged to be pretty damn corrupt, yet most are even worse.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  The US does have many rich people in government, but it's not accurate to suggest that they got rich by being part of the government. Rather, the cost of running electoral campaigns is so high that it selects for people who are already rich from private enterprise (with highly variable degrees of legitimacy). You are putting the cart before the horse, although it is also true that members of Congress are largely exempted from insider trading rules and thus some of them further exploit their position (vs handing their wealth over to a trust administered by some neutral third party). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the...
- lawlessone 3y ago
  > The US has people in government who are worth $100s of millions of dollars off salaries that would be entry level in Silicon Valley. That's a good argument to pay them more. If we paid politicians nothing the only people that would be politicians would be those wealthy enough to pursue it as a hobby
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    My understanding is that this is the rationale for Singapore's very high government salaries: To attract the best and brightest to public service.
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    I think its a good argument to arrest anyone whose betrayed their oath of office
mcpackieh 3y ago
How do you fix corruption without cutting off the money feeding/rewarding it?

danpalmer 3y ago

That seems like an implementation issue rather than a philosophical issue? Tax could be spent with high efficiency, and is in other countries with less bureaucracy and corruption. I wouldn't throw out the idea of income tax because the US happens to have a poor system. The same could be said for democracy, the US having a fairly poor implementation, but no one is seriously suggesting the US stop being a democracy.

Eumenes 3y ago
I'd prefer to defund the federal government and focus on local/regional systems. I'm much more likely to support my neighbor and local communities over putting 20-30% of my income to be divided up in Washington, 1000s of miles away.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  The emotional attachment you're talking about is certainly true. This is why supposedly systems of government work best around ~8m citizens. Perhaps a local income tax would work better? Property/land taxes can also be locally administered and skew towards those who can afford it rather than those who can't.