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Are online user revolutions a thing? I can see this happening if the future continues on a dystopian path. Maybe users would organize and threatened to leave or

by proc0 3y ago

Are online user revolutions a thing? I can see this happening if the future continues on a dystopian path. Maybe users would organize and threatened to leave or have a change of power structure. Our online accounts are increasingly becoming our identities to the rest of the world, which consequently gives us agency in it, and social media has evolved to literally own this part of ourselves.

PeterHolzwarth 3y ago
A subset of users and mods attempted a bit of a revolution on Reddit recently, you'll recall.
- karmakurtisaani 3y ago
  I switched from Reddit to Lemmy and haven't been back more than a handful of times (and will never comment again). Turns out only a fraction of users did the same, so not sure it was an efficient protest. I'm happy about the quality of discussion in Lemmy, although it would be nice to have more niche communities. On the other hand, the enshittification of Reddit is for sure not over, so I'm happy to have left that timesink earlier rather than later.
  - ornornor 3y ago
    I’ve also deleted my account and never went back to Reddit. I will never create an account or comment on there again. I don’t even miss it, turns out there are 15–20 years old forums with much higher quality information and participants about any niche subject I was using Reddit for. Thanks for opening my eyes /u/spez I guess :)
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    For what it's worth, Mastodon has been a nice community for me. I haven't really found my place in the lemmyverse. Maybe that's a good thing though.
    - KirillPanov 3y ago
      To use the Mastodon web application, please enable JavaScript. Alternatively, try one of the native apps for Mastodon for your platform.
      - krapp 3y ago
        ... yes, and?
      - edgyquant 3y ago
        Is this a bot?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Turns out only a fraction of users did the same, so not sure it was an efficient protest. The interesting question is, what makes an efficient protest? What is effective in what situations? How is it organized?
  - colordrops 3y ago
    Lemmy isn't some utopia either. There seem to be users of a particular political bent that if you breath in a way that slightly hints that you might not fully align with them, they follow you around every forum and harass you. I ended up replying to one of harassers in a nasty way, and it earned me a ban on the main instance without warning. I was fine with it though, as I was falling into the same shitty time-wasting use patterns that I found myself engaging in on Reddit and Twitter.
  - wccrawford 3y ago
    Lemmy wasn't ready for all of Reddit's users to switch, and I suspect it still isn't. But enough of them switched that it got critical mass, and the develops can focus on some pain points for a while. I've kept both my accounts, and I look at both... And I'm quite happy with Lemmy in comparison. Reddit does tend to both have more content and more comments, but they're generally lower-value to me than Lemmy's comments. I now check Lemmy first, and if I have more time to waste, check Reddit.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Yes... and to be honest, it appears to have failed miserably. And that was with Reddit. Try inciting a full scale revolution against Google and Amazon, for what they are right now. It's not happening. I've honestly come to the conclusion that 98%+ of people... don't give a darn about "computational freedom." And, to be honest, why should they? They have so many other demands on their lives than an argument about what software they can run on their phone. As long as it runs what they are used to, they don't care. The market also shows this as well. If "computational freedom" was something that most people actually cared about, Linux would not be sitting with ~2% market share. I also have found that most people like appliances. We argue against appliances - like, why would you want your phone to be a dumb appliance considering everything it could possibly do? I've even seen Right-to-Repair and other people (I believe Cory included) screeching about how Apple has turned smartphones into appliances. For most people though... that's a feature, not a bug. Appliances mostly just work. "Computers" in their mind, don't. They don't want their phone to be like their "computer". In which case, I think Microsoft bears the greater blame for permanently sullying what a "computer" feels like. Edit: And while I keep adding my thoughts, I think it is interesting how the App Store, despite literally restricting what customers can install, actually gives customers a very strong sense of "freedom." How many people install apps on Windows? Almost none - in part, because the openness of the platform made most people terrified to install, or even just download, anything. Customers aren't afraid of installing, or trying, anything from the App Store - so to them, the iPhone probably feels more free than their PC. While I generally support sideloading, I do get the sense that most people will, ironically, feel less free overall once it rolls out.
  - weikju 3y ago
    I appreciate these thoughts being written down and these points definitely need to be addressed. I think one of the big problems is not that phones etc are appliances but that everything company is trying to turn their offerings into an appliance (and alternatives becoming more and more niche), and at the same time alternatives are just not allowed to be on the same footing. In some places you need either an Android (Google Android that is) or an iPhone to partake in some services (commercial or otherwise). Very often it feels penalizing to refuse to use either of those, or you lose out in quality of life or available services as a result. This isn’t good.
- gdulli 3y ago
  Once a big enough Eternal September hits a platform I don't think that kind of revolution is possible anymore. The tyranny of the docile will ensure that a big enough majority will always stick around regardless of how the platform degrades.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Surely that's ideal. Eternal September is not a desirable state and presumably the "docile" are not the desired compatriots. So that means that this is good. One can just go start Sawwit and Reddit will act as the lightning rod for the docile while the John Galts go to Sawwit.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  ... and if the users and mods who led the "revolution" had gotten their way, reddit would have become even more reddit than it ever had been. I want a revolution that returns reddit to the way it was ten or so years ago when for the most part you could publish whatever you wanted (or a distributed alternative that was uncensorable), but they want a reddit revolution where nobody could publish _anything_ unless it was groupthink approved.
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  That stunt was doomed to fail due to inconsistent messaging, goals, and total lack of solidarity. Reddit and its ilk are already dead. Even Lemmy's content starts to repeat itself due to 'cross posts' or other allegedly community building activities. The chief problem of these platforms is their gameability. Numbers create social 'games' and before you know it, nobody gives a shit what you're saying, they just want to say some short quip, make a number go up, and feel superior. It comes back around to the problem of: you can't solve social problems with more technology. Social media has a huge verifiability and trust problem. We need to do away with karma systems, because giving people power to silence each other only leads to abuse. Invitation trees as a social concept keeps people honest, at least if they don't want to piss off others who invited them or were invited by the same person. The group on Reddit really has no backbone. They folded as soon as their Reddit accounts were threatened. Real protest would've been gaming their system with bots (the same way they do!) And manipulating the narrative en masse. Nobody had anywhere to go except the Fediverse, and that has its own collection of issues. Social media is just not compatible with the way people socialize. It's a glamor and attention competition, and the winner gets... likes? But yeah, to call that half-assed protest a revolution is somewhat of an insult to activism.
wolverine876 3y ago
> Are online user revolutions a thing? How do you define that? People organizing themselves and changing their situation, successfully, is as old as time. Likely, you live in a country where democracy was forced on the powers-that-be in that way.
- jruohonen 3y ago
  Well, the WSJ recently reported that Meta is planning to charge money for ad-free versions of their platforms in Europe. So, yes, I am sure the common people will eventually "revolt" with their feet.

by proc0 3y ago

PeterHolzwarth 3y ago

A subset of users and mods attempted a bit of a revolution on Reddit recently, you'll recall.

karmakurtisaani 3y ago
I switched from Reddit to Lemmy and haven't been back more than a handful of times (and will never comment again). Turns out only a fraction of users did the same, so not sure it was an efficient protest. I'm happy about the quality of discussion in Lemmy, although it would be nice to have more niche communities. On the other hand, the enshittification of Reddit is for sure not over, so I'm happy to have left that timesink earlier rather than later.
- ornornor 3y ago
  I’ve also deleted my account and never went back to Reddit. I will never create an account or comment on there again. I don’t even miss it, turns out there are 15–20 years old forums with much higher quality information and participants about any niche subject I was using Reddit for. Thanks for opening my eyes /u/spez I guess :)
- CalRobert 3y ago
  For what it's worth, Mastodon has been a nice community for me. I haven't really found my place in the lemmyverse. Maybe that's a good thing though.
  - KirillPanov 3y ago
    To use the Mastodon web application, please enable JavaScript. Alternatively, try one of the native apps for Mastodon for your platform.
    - krapp 3y ago
      ... yes, and?
    - edgyquant 3y ago
      Is this a bot?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Turns out only a fraction of users did the same, so not sure it was an efficient protest. The interesting question is, what makes an efficient protest? What is effective in what situations? How is it organized?
- colordrops 3y ago
  Lemmy isn't some utopia either. There seem to be users of a particular political bent that if you breath in a way that slightly hints that you might not fully align with them, they follow you around every forum and harass you. I ended up replying to one of harassers in a nasty way, and it earned me a ban on the main instance without warning. I was fine with it though, as I was falling into the same shitty time-wasting use patterns that I found myself engaging in on Reddit and Twitter.
- wccrawford 3y ago
  Lemmy wasn't ready for all of Reddit's users to switch, and I suspect it still isn't. But enough of them switched that it got critical mass, and the develops can focus on some pain points for a while. I've kept both my accounts, and I look at both... And I'm quite happy with Lemmy in comparison. Reddit does tend to both have more content and more comments, but they're generally lower-value to me than Lemmy's comments. I now check Lemmy first, and if I have more time to waste, check Reddit.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
Yes... and to be honest, it appears to have failed miserably. And that was with Reddit. Try inciting a full scale revolution against Google and Amazon, for what they are right now. It's not happening. I've honestly come to the conclusion that 98%+ of people... don't give a darn about "computational freedom." And, to be honest, why should they? They have so many other demands on their lives than an argument about what software they can run on their phone. As long as it runs what they are used to, they don't care. The market also shows this as well. If "computational freedom" was something that most people actually cared about, Linux would not be sitting with ~2% market share. I also have found that most people like appliances. We argue against appliances - like, why would you want your phone to be a dumb appliance considering everything it could possibly do? I've even seen Right-to-Repair and other people (I believe Cory included) screeching about how Apple has turned smartphones into appliances. For most people though... that's a feature, not a bug. Appliances mostly just work. "Computers" in their mind, don't. They don't want their phone to be like their "computer". In which case, I think Microsoft bears the greater blame for permanently sullying what a "computer" feels like. Edit: And while I keep adding my thoughts, I think it is interesting how the App Store, despite literally restricting what customers can install, actually gives customers a very strong sense of "freedom." How many people install apps on Windows? Almost none - in part, because the openness of the platform made most people terrified to install, or even just download, anything. Customers aren't afraid of installing, or trying, anything from the App Store - so to them, the iPhone probably feels more free than their PC. While I generally support sideloading, I do get the sense that most people will, ironically, feel less free overall once it rolls out.
- weikju 3y ago
  I appreciate these thoughts being written down and these points definitely need to be addressed. I think one of the big problems is not that phones etc are appliances but that everything company is trying to turn their offerings into an appliance (and alternatives becoming more and more niche), and at the same time alternatives are just not allowed to be on the same footing. In some places you need either an Android (Google Android that is) or an iPhone to partake in some services (commercial or otherwise). Very often it feels penalizing to refuse to use either of those, or you lose out in quality of life or available services as a result. This isn’t good.
gdulli 3y ago
Once a big enough Eternal September hits a platform I don't think that kind of revolution is possible anymore. The tyranny of the docile will ensure that a big enough majority will always stick around regardless of how the platform degrades.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Surely that's ideal. Eternal September is not a desirable state and presumably the "docile" are not the desired compatriots. So that means that this is good. One can just go start Sawwit and Reddit will act as the lightning rod for the docile while the John Galts go to Sawwit.
commandlinefan 3y ago
... and if the users and mods who led the "revolution" had gotten their way, reddit would have become even more reddit than it ever had been. I want a revolution that returns reddit to the way it was ten or so years ago when for the most part you could publish whatever you wanted (or a distributed alternative that was uncensorable), but they want a reddit revolution where nobody could publish _anything_ unless it was groupthink approved.
zlg_codes 3y ago
That stunt was doomed to fail due to inconsistent messaging, goals, and total lack of solidarity. Reddit and its ilk are already dead. Even Lemmy's content starts to repeat itself due to 'cross posts' or other allegedly community building activities. The chief problem of these platforms is their gameability. Numbers create social 'games' and before you know it, nobody gives a shit what you're saying, they just want to say some short quip, make a number go up, and feel superior. It comes back around to the problem of: you can't solve social problems with more technology. Social media has a huge verifiability and trust problem. We need to do away with karma systems, because giving people power to silence each other only leads to abuse. Invitation trees as a social concept keeps people honest, at least if they don't want to piss off others who invited them or were invited by the same person. The group on Reddit really has no backbone. They folded as soon as their Reddit accounts were threatened. Real protest would've been gaming their system with bots (the same way they do!) And manipulating the narrative en masse. Nobody had anywhere to go except the Fediverse, and that has its own collection of issues. Social media is just not compatible with the way people socialize. It's a glamor and attention competition, and the winner gets... likes? But yeah, to call that half-assed protest a revolution is somewhat of an insult to activism.

wolverine876 3y ago

> Are online user revolutions a thing? How do you define that? People organizing themselves and changing their situation, successfully, is as old as time. Likely, you live in a country where democracy was forced on the powers-that-be in that way.

jruohonen 3y ago
Well, the WSJ recently reported that Meta is planning to charge money for ad-free versions of their platforms in Europe. So, yes, I am sure the common people will eventually "revolt" with their feet.