5 ms·

The EU Just Kicked Off Its Biggest Climate Experiment Yet

48 points by elashri 3y ago

Kelteseth 3y ago
This is super important. We're always running in circles here in Germany because the dialog always ends up at: Why should we invest so much in green energy, if China outputs x times more than us. Now countries and companies have even more pressure to cut their emissions. Good job EU!
- joe__f 3y ago
  Lots of China's emissions come from manufacturing products which are sent to countries such as Germany
  - pulse7 3y ago
    This is the reason why carbon tax will be at EU borders: if something is producing emissions and is sent to Germany or EU is will be taxed higher than products not producing emissions...
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Meaning that it will make life even more expensive for us. Not sure if that's a good thing. Between inflation and rising interest rates we're already in a very bad spot. I'm already feeling squeezed. I can't imagine how people are that don't have a good job. No wonder populist parties are doing so well.
      - cmarschner 3y ago
        Only short term, as increased prices give incentives to produce things without carbon emissions. Besides, these prices have always been there as external costs. You just never paid them. This needs to stop anyway.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        Yes but if only we pay them and the rest of the world doesn't, we're just hurting ourselves. And I don't believe in the market ever solving these problems even with the right incentives.
        malermeister 3y ago
        The money we pay doesn't magically disappear, it goes to the state as revenue. We could use said revenue to do like a UBI or something to counteract the negative effects.
        joe__f 3y ago
        Why should developing countries share the externalities for products that you consume and use? Maybe the market won't be able to solve these problems even with appropriate measures like those suggested here. Your argument seems to be, "it won't work so we shouldn't try because it will be worse for us" which doesn't seem convincing to me.
NotGMan 3y ago
Electricity prices up all across Europe and instead of waiting for stabilization they just keep on piling stuff that will make Europeans even more poor. Instead of focusing on China and India, which are the major polluters clearly shows that the EU lost the sight of the big picture. >> The border tax will provide an incentive for other countries to model their own carbon prices after the EU emissions trading plan. Yeah, no. India and China will just say "no thx" and what can EU do about it? Nothing.
- perihelions 3y ago
  - "and what can EU do about it? Nothing" The answer's right in front of you: the EU's imposing tariffs on goods exported from China into the EU. China is an export economy. This matters to them. (I mean, if you want to argue that China is turning inward and its internal market will soon be the largest consumption market on the planet, sidelining the EU, I'll concede that. But in the near term, the EU market is a globally super-influential one. These policies are not irrelevant).
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    This only works up to a point. First, European voters may well decide that they don't care about carbon emissions that much; with every economic downturn, the green parties tend to lose votes and the far right gains. Second, "reeducation by tariffs" will produce resentments that may bite us back. I can see the reverse happening later; e.g. India adding extra tariffs to its own products unless we accept Hindutva.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > European voters may well decide that they don't care about carbon emissions that much This is tautology--of course it won't work if people don't want to do it anymore. > India adding extra tariffs to its own products unless we accept Hindutva If someone is stupid enough to do this, they don't need a reason.
      - 3y ago
xnzakg 3y ago
https://archive.ph/Xy9qO https://archive.ph/Xy9qO
dr_kretyn 3y ago
Heard about a while back and super excited that it's implemented. One of the examples I remember is less polluting cement and steel. We know how to do it but it's marginally more expensive than "traditional" so companies producing it are on a small scale, mainly for "enthusiasts". Given this tax, the price for better steel/cement is going to be on par with the traditional and thus should incentives companies to buy it, thus reducing emissions in general. Reduction is the first and main part. So what if in 15 years we'll have tech to clean, if by then we make irreversible and expensive damage.
dsign 3y ago
The devil is in the details, and I for one fear the effect on prices that will ripple all the way down to the European consumer (they are sky-high already, and taxation is super high as well), but if it works, it works. What I'm really curious about is how we are going to fix CO2 emissions from food[^1]. I believe we can decarbonize food production...at a huge political cost. Are we going to use the boil-the-frog technique for that as well? Will there be "meat protests" in France at some point? [^1]: https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability-indicators/carbon-footprint-factsheet https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability...
- throwbadubadu 3y ago
  Certainly this will ripple through to the customer? The goal of such a border tax for these is to make products within EU competitive again, which have these already priced in, vs external ones which can just not care and be cheap. Always sad that this reasonable tax adaptions are not really in place for more things, e.g. the cost of worker protection here vs there.

48 points by elashri 3y ago

This is super important. We're always running in circles here in Germany because the dialog always ends up at: Why should we invest so much in green energy, if China outputs x times more than us. Now countries and companies have even more pressure to cut their emissions. Good job EU!

joe__f 3y ago
Lots of China's emissions come from manufacturing products which are sent to countries such as Germany
- pulse7 3y ago
  This is the reason why carbon tax will be at EU borders: if something is producing emissions and is sent to Germany or EU is will be taxed higher than products not producing emissions...
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Meaning that it will make life even more expensive for us. Not sure if that's a good thing. Between inflation and rising interest rates we're already in a very bad spot. I'm already feeling squeezed. I can't imagine how people are that don't have a good job. No wonder populist parties are doing so well.
    - cmarschner 3y ago
      Only short term, as increased prices give incentives to produce things without carbon emissions. Besides, these prices have always been there as external costs. You just never paid them. This needs to stop anyway.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Yes but if only we pay them and the rest of the world doesn't, we're just hurting ourselves. And I don't believe in the market ever solving these problems even with the right incentives.
        malermeister 3y ago
        The money we pay doesn't magically disappear, it goes to the state as revenue. We could use said revenue to do like a UBI or something to counteract the negative effects.
        joe__f 3y ago
        Why should developing countries share the externalities for products that you consume and use? Maybe the market won't be able to solve these problems even with appropriate measures like those suggested here. Your argument seems to be, "it won't work so we shouldn't try because it will be worse for us" which doesn't seem convincing to me.

NotGMan 3y ago

Electricity prices up all across Europe and instead of waiting for stabilization they just keep on piling stuff that will make Europeans even more poor. Instead of focusing on China and India, which are the major polluters clearly shows that the EU lost the sight of the big picture. >> The border tax will provide an incentive for other countries to model their own carbon prices after the EU emissions trading plan. Yeah, no. India and China will just say "no thx" and what can EU do about it? Nothing.

perihelions 3y ago
- "and what can EU do about it? Nothing" The answer's right in front of you: the EU's imposing tariffs on goods exported from China into the EU. China is an export economy. This matters to them. (I mean, if you want to argue that China is turning inward and its internal market will soon be the largest consumption market on the planet, sidelining the EU, I'll concede that. But in the near term, the EU market is a globally super-influential one. These policies are not irrelevant).
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  This only works up to a point. First, European voters may well decide that they don't care about carbon emissions that much; with every economic downturn, the green parties tend to lose votes and the far right gains. Second, "reeducation by tariffs" will produce resentments that may bite us back. I can see the reverse happening later; e.g. India adding extra tariffs to its own products unless we accept Hindutva.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > European voters may well decide that they don't care about carbon emissions that much This is tautology--of course it won't work if people don't want to do it anymore. > India adding extra tariffs to its own products unless we accept Hindutva If someone is stupid enough to do this, they don't need a reason.
    - 3y ago

xnzakg 3y ago

https://archive.ph/Xy9qO https://archive.ph/Xy9qO

dr_kretyn 3y ago

Heard about a while back and super excited that it's implemented. One of the examples I remember is less polluting cement and steel. We know how to do it but it's marginally more expensive than "traditional" so companies producing it are on a small scale, mainly for "enthusiasts". Given this tax, the price for better steel/cement is going to be on par with the traditional and thus should incentives companies to buy it, thus reducing emissions in general. Reduction is the first and main part. So what if in 15 years we'll have tech to clean, if by then we make irreversible and expensive damage.

dsign 3y ago

The devil is in the details, and I for one fear the effect on prices that will ripple all the way down to the European consumer (they are sky-high already, and taxation is super high as well), but if it works, it works. What I'm really curious about is how we are going to fix CO2 emissions from food[^1]. I believe we can decarbonize food production...at a huge political cost. Are we going to use the boil-the-frog technique for that as well? Will there be "meat protests" in France at some point? [^1]: https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability-indicators/carbon-footprint-factsheet https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability...

throwbadubadu 3y ago
Certainly this will ripple through to the customer? The goal of such a border tax for these is to make products within EU competitive again, which have these already priced in, vs external ones which can just not care and be cheap. Always sad that this reasonable tax adaptions are not really in place for more things, e.g. the cost of worker protection here vs there.