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Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax rates and calculate these on in step 2. 'Every one knows' is a very US centric view, which even I doubt is true given the degree of illiteracy and math deficiency in the overall population.

kelnos 3y ago
"Everyone knows" is indeed US-centric in this case, but when we are talking about the state of things where it relates to a US state's law, the US-centric view is entirely fine and should be expected. If we were talking about, say, a French law, I would expect the default assumption to be French standards and customs.
- snovv_crash 3y ago
  I would expect that if someone gives you an invoice, or advertises a price, the amount you pay is the amount listed. Otherwise it's basically fraud, or at least false advertising.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retailers here use paper labels—a result of historically-low inflation expectations. It’s easier to implement that complexity at check out than on the shelves. (I’d also guess that America’s credit card use means more check-out stations are digital than in much of the world.) Add to that a cultural distrust of taxation and government, a decreasing tendency to use cash and a higher income per capita and you have a genuine difference in preferences.
- PeterStuer 3y ago
  I did word that travelling part poorly and you are right to call that out. Thing is, leaving aside foreigners, there seems to be such an intrinsic contradiction between the 'everyone knows' and the 'it is so complex we can't even put it on the store shelf price label'. Over here (Europe) for better or worse near 100% store checkouts are digital, regardless of wether you pay with credit or debit card. We get the correct price we will pay displayed on store shelves. We get a breakout of tax on the PoS ticket. In most places we also get a breakout of the price and the promo on the ticket (as in e.g. buy 2 get one free promos). Yes. I am biased by experience, but I fail to see how not knowing how much you will pay for someting when and where you make the decision to buy it, that is when you take it of the shelf and put it in your cart, can be an advantage you would argue for.
- fransje26 3y ago
  > Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. > cultural distrust of taxation and government > a decreasing tendency to use cash > higher income per capita Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper. > Also, most retailers here use paper labels Great! Makes it even easier to printout the actual price. 1) Retrieve base price from database 2) Add local tax 3) Add whatever other "hidden" cost is needed 4) Printout label.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper The pieces of paper are in multiple places. The bill is calculated in one place. Doing things in multiple places is more costly and error prone than doing it in one. (Also, the paper being physical means a physical person must update it. The POS can be remotely managed.) Here is New York State's guide on clothing and footwear taxes [1]. (It's particularly well documented.) If any one of those counties makes a change, you're now proposing someone run through the entire store to update the affected labels or else risk lying about the price. That's manageable for a multinational. It's bonkers for a small shop owner. Instead, their POS is remotely updated (worst case, they get a bulletin to punch in a code) and when the barcode is scanned, the system figures out whether it's $110 or less and if it's really a costume or not. If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't. The number isn't big enough, and I'm swiping or tapping either way. (Cash-only stores do tend to be tax inclusive, at least in New York, but that's because they're usually not paying the whole tax.) As I said, I can't remember finding it helpful when I travel to tax-inclusive priced countries. Surprising as it may seem, this really is simply a cultural preference. No right answer. [1] https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf
braelen7 3y ago
It is because you are listening to bullshit online too much. I have lived in the US my whole life and I can't remember that last time I left a tip for anything besides a place that you sit down to eat and someone brings you food. My first job was delivering pizza and that is something with a long social norm of tipping. A tip was a nice bonus but if someone didn't tip it didn't matter because someone else people would tip an irrationally large amount. I didn't think bad of those that didn't tip, I just assumed they were that broke. It is not that "every one knows" it is that no one cares about this in the real world the way they do when grandstanding on social media.
- bubblethink 3y ago
  When I moved to the US, I didn't know that you are expected to tip for a haircut. I still don't see a meaningful difference between a hair stylist and any other employee that provides a service (e.g., cashier, barista). Yet, here we are.
- PeterStuer 3y ago
  First visit to the US, the second day my collegues and me were berated by the hotel breakfast staff (plural, they actually ganged up at our table) in Martha's Vineyard for not tipping.
hot_gril 3y ago
This is the US, it's gonna be US-centric. But tax should be part of the price anyway for a physical store, cause there's no reason for it not to be. At least tip sorta has the point of being variable.

kelnos 3y ago

"Everyone knows" is indeed US-centric in this case, but when we are talking about the state of things where it relates to a US state's law, the US-centric view is entirely fine and should be expected. If we were talking about, say, a French law, I would expect the default assumption to be French standards and customs.

snovv_crash 3y ago
I would expect that if someone gives you an invoice, or advertises a price, the amount you pay is the amount listed. Otherwise it's basically fraud, or at least false advertising.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retailers here use paper labels—a result of historically-low inflation expectations. It’s easier to implement that complexity at check out than on the shelves. (I’d also guess that America’s credit card use means more check-out stations are digital than in much of the world.) Add to that a cultural distrust of taxation and government, a decreasing tendency to use cash and a higher income per capita and you have a genuine difference in preferences.

PeterStuer 3y ago
I did word that travelling part poorly and you are right to call that out. Thing is, leaving aside foreigners, there seems to be such an intrinsic contradiction between the 'everyone knows' and the 'it is so complex we can't even put it on the store shelf price label'. Over here (Europe) for better or worse near 100% store checkouts are digital, regardless of wether you pay with credit or debit card. We get the correct price we will pay displayed on store shelves. We get a breakout of tax on the PoS ticket. In most places we also get a breakout of the price and the promo on the ticket (as in e.g. buy 2 get one free promos). Yes. I am biased by experience, but I fail to see how not knowing how much you will pay for someting when and where you make the decision to buy it, that is when you take it of the shelf and put it in your cart, can be an advantage you would argue for.
fransje26 3y ago
> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. > cultural distrust of taxation and government > a decreasing tendency to use cash > higher income per capita Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper. > Also, most retailers here use paper labels Great! Makes it even easier to printout the actual price. 1) Retrieve base price from database 2) Add local tax 3) Add whatever other "hidden" cost is needed 4) Printout label.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper The pieces of paper are in multiple places. The bill is calculated in one place. Doing things in multiple places is more costly and error prone than doing it in one. (Also, the paper being physical means a physical person must update it. The POS can be remotely managed.) Here is New York State's guide on clothing and footwear taxes [1]. (It's particularly well documented.) If any one of those counties makes a change, you're now proposing someone run through the entire store to update the affected labels or else risk lying about the price. That's manageable for a multinational. It's bonkers for a small shop owner. Instead, their POS is remotely updated (worst case, they get a bulletin to punch in a code) and when the barcode is scanned, the system figures out whether it's $110 or less and if it's really a costume or not. If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't. The number isn't big enough, and I'm swiping or tapping either way. (Cash-only stores do tend to be tax inclusive, at least in New York, but that's because they're usually not paying the whole tax.) As I said, I can't remember finding it helpful when I travel to tax-inclusive priced countries. Surprising as it may seem, this really is simply a cultural preference. No right answer. [1] https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf

braelen7 3y ago

It is because you are listening to bullshit online too much. I have lived in the US my whole life and I can't remember that last time I left a tip for anything besides a place that you sit down to eat and someone brings you food. My first job was delivering pizza and that is something with a long social norm of tipping. A tip was a nice bonus but if someone didn't tip it didn't matter because someone else people would tip an irrationally large amount. I didn't think bad of those that didn't tip, I just assumed they were that broke. It is not that "every one knows" it is that no one cares about this in the real world the way they do when grandstanding on social media.

bubblethink 3y ago
When I moved to the US, I didn't know that you are expected to tip for a haircut. I still don't see a meaningful difference between a hair stylist and any other employee that provides a service (e.g., cashier, barista). Yet, here we are.
PeterStuer 3y ago
First visit to the US, the second day my collegues and me were berated by the hotel breakfast staff (plural, they actually ganged up at our table) in Martha's Vineyard for not tipping.

hot_gril 3y ago

This is the US, it's gonna be US-centric. But tax should be part of the price anyway for a physical store, cause there's no reason for it not to be. At least tip sorta has the point of being variable.