15 ms·

A Former Amazon Worker Was Put a Performance Plan; Lost a Deposit on a House

23 points by uladzislau 3y ago

crmrc114 3y ago
Tldr. Never, ever take a tam role at Amazon. My leadership actually told me to avoid that role when I worked at Amazon as I was curious about more customer facing roles.
anigbrowl 3y ago
It sounds like maybe this guy's manager didn't like him and that the job was loaded with near-impossible expectations so that just about any managerial decision could be spun as someone being fired for cause. But the story style is a mess of disconnected quotes that read as if the journalist clipped half the text in a blog or forum post almost at random, then hit publish. The guy sold his house, lost $100k on a deposit for another property, his wife is upset and confused about the whole thing, and I can't help getting the impression that he blew up or burnt out because the vibes were bad? Guy sounds somewhat unstable to tbqh, it could be that he's very personable in some respects but still impossible to work with. His refusal to take any kind of severance and throwing away a 6 figure home deposit made me think of compulsive gamblers and similar personalities. I'm generally pretty cynical about corporations and employment but in this case I ended sympathizing with his manager and even more so with his still-confused wife.
zeroCalories 3y ago
You really shouldn't be making purchases assuming you'll have a FAANG salary forever. As we've seen, layoffs will come, random PIP come, and you might be forced to take a huge pay cut. Worst case, you'll be unemployed. Sure you can sell, but you'll have to hope the housing market has stayed good, and that you've made up for all of the fixed costs when buying and selling. It's often not worth it until you've owned it for several years. That's not even considering the stress of buying/selling, or how it locks you into one geographical location. Cool offer in SF? Hope you don't mind going through the process again.
- j7ake 3y ago
  Just lawyer and closing costs of a house can be 2 percent of the house. Do this two or three times (one to buy new, one to sell, and one final to buy the downgrade) is easily 6 percent of a house. So the house needs to go up 6 percent just to break even in the most ideal scenario.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Typical transaction costs for a sale with agents are 6% before closing costs.
  - delfinom 3y ago
    Meh, the lawyers I've dealt with for real estate only charge between $1.5k-$3k per transaction since it's largely all boilerplate review for them that they do a lot. It's the real estate agent that take a 6% cut. Lol
- rhelz 3y ago
  Exactly how are you supposed to buy a house without a steady FAANG salary for 30 years?
  - zeroCalories 3y ago
    You probably just don't? If you really want to, wait until you're married with dual income and buy significantly under your budget. That might mean a longer commute and your kids sharing a room, but you won't be having panic attacks during every performance review for the next three decades.
    - throwaway5959 3y ago
      That’s what we did. We should have bought sooner, we would have saved a lot. But we’re happy owning now and not having to worry about what rent will be next year. Hopefully in a few years we’ll refinance at a lower rate and have a lot more principal paid down. If you’re having kids and you want a big place (we want neither), there are plenty of places in the country where houses (big ones) are a quarter of what they are in the Bay, Seattle, etc. Sure, you won’t be making $350k/year as a senior but the schools will be excellent, your kids will be safer and if one of you lose your jobs it won’t matter because you’ll have a massive emergency fund and lower expenses.
j7ake 3y ago
> But I never thought I would be pushed out. Famous last words.
rhelz 3y ago
Big clue: the trouble came when he was helping an overcharged customer. At the same time, he must have been exposing bad management (or even fraudulent management) which caused the overcharge in the first place. Ergo, he must be discredited. Ergo, he must be a loser. Ergo, he must be fired.
tibbydudeza 3y ago
We had something called a PIP - it was used to get rid of people instead of helping them.
donor20 3y ago
A new tam finds a “huge” overcharge. Most AWS billing is automated - I think a bit more detail would be helpful on this huge overcharge and refund. For new folks maybe run it up to manager early to figure out approach / insure understanding is good? Hard not to see a link to AWS unhappiness there potentially- and no doubt places did overhire too. Be curious about actual timing - there was a tightening up at a lot of places not too long ago and stealth layoffs via pips etc
d1sxeyes 3y ago
To be clear, he did not lose the deposit on the house because he was put on a performance plan. He lost the deposit on the house because his ability to finish the house he was building was predicated on his salary, which is a normal requirement when you apply for a mortgage. He says: > My wife and I decided to sell our house, take the money, and use it to build a bigger house because we have a large family. This seems to actually mean 'we decided to sell our house, take the money and use it as a deposit on a loan for a bigger house'. As I understand, he did not actually have the cash to buy the bigger house. > So I lost my job. I was building a house. I lost my house because I couldn't close on that. I lost $110,000 that there's no way I'm going to get back. He did not 'lose' his job. He quit. He mentions that he processed a big refund for a customer—it's indeed possible that this caused him to be flagged for closer scrutiny. He mentions that he refused to shadow other TAMs to see what they do. He mentions behaviour from his manager which is broadly consistent with how a manager would treat an underperformer (minuted references to failures to meet documented expectations). His deposit is big but he's building a house. It's not the construction firms' fault he can't follow through, and it is reasonable that he 'loses' it (although again, the circumstances here are a bit unclear—he doesn't have anything at all to show for that money? Not even the land?) I'm no big Amazon fan, but this seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. He chose not to follow the recommendations of his manager when he was on a PIP, decided to take matters into his own hands and resign, collected a severance package, and now complains that he can't get a mortgage any more now he doesn't have a job.
- salil999 3y ago
  You're under the assumption that the PIP process is fair. I'm a former AWS employee (never on PIP) but I've seen it being applied to very smart and capable individuals. It's just a game of what manager likes you.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    It is also well known that Amazon has (or has had) target attrition percentages. Managers are expected to oust a quota. The only blame the author deserves is the financial leap of faith that he'd hit the big time by landing a job at Amazon.
netsharc 3y ago
Tangential nitpick: huh, a sentence or two per paragraph. This is like reading a Twitter thread, but hey long Twitter threads always grinds my gears, so putting everything in 1 article is a lot better. But geez, it's like an article from BuzzFeed (the part that wasn't award-winning) or written by a 5th grader.
costanzaDynasty 3y ago
Any company that pays much higher than the average for the same role should be considered as a temporary job and should be used to enhance savings goals. In giant corporations you either move up or you move out.
thrway63245 3y ago
When his manager was documenting every interaction this guy was already in Focus. Amazon has a secret stage where they don't tell you that you are in the program, but they'll block a team change if you try to move. Also, their policy is to not deny it if directly questioned, so if you are at Amazon and you see this excessive documentation - immediately ask your manager if you are in Focus and if you hear a yes - start interviewing.
ttr2021 3y ago
I had a similar experience, but I joined AWS support, in a pretty challenging role (big data profile). My first 3 months were training (almost none of it on any big data technologies) taking cases and working with other support engineers. The role itself was very demanding, very little prep with the transition to the actual role, and I felt lost most of the time. Learning how AWS puts their services together was most of the challenge and to be honest the and my manager (normal IT guy) didn't really understand the basics or complexity of the cases we were dealing with at all from several conversations I had with him. He oversimplified just about everything. At some point in time 6 months into the role, he decides to move to a different area. My new manager was like "oh I see you are on a performance improvement program". This was the first I had ever heard of it. After explaining myself to the new manager and doing a few kickass cases for very large customers, I was actually sent on training at Amazon HQ and from there I never looked back, and ended up becoming a global big data SME in professional services. So from there point of view I was worth the investment (especially at ~2-3500 a day billable to customers!). But I'll never forget that my manager wanted me out after only 6 months, working with some of the most difficult customers and most difficult support cases I think AWS support has to deal with..

23 points by uladzislau 3y ago

Tldr. Never, ever take a tam role at Amazon. My leadership actually told me to avoid that role when I worked at Amazon as I was curious about more customer facing roles.

anigbrowl 3y ago

It sounds like maybe this guy's manager didn't like him and that the job was loaded with near-impossible expectations so that just about any managerial decision could be spun as someone being fired for cause. But the story style is a mess of disconnected quotes that read as if the journalist clipped half the text in a blog or forum post almost at random, then hit publish. The guy sold his house, lost $100k on a deposit for another property, his wife is upset and confused about the whole thing, and I can't help getting the impression that he blew up or burnt out because the vibes were bad? Guy sounds somewhat unstable to tbqh, it could be that he's very personable in some respects but still impossible to work with. His refusal to take any kind of severance and throwing away a 6 figure home deposit made me think of compulsive gamblers and similar personalities. I'm generally pretty cynical about corporations and employment but in this case I ended sympathizing with his manager and even more so with his still-confused wife.

zeroCalories 3y ago

You really shouldn't be making purchases assuming you'll have a FAANG salary forever. As we've seen, layoffs will come, random PIP come, and you might be forced to take a huge pay cut. Worst case, you'll be unemployed. Sure you can sell, but you'll have to hope the housing market has stayed good, and that you've made up for all of the fixed costs when buying and selling. It's often not worth it until you've owned it for several years. That's not even considering the stress of buying/selling, or how it locks you into one geographical location. Cool offer in SF? Hope you don't mind going through the process again.

j7ake 3y ago
Just lawyer and closing costs of a house can be 2 percent of the house. Do this two or three times (one to buy new, one to sell, and one final to buy the downgrade) is easily 6 percent of a house. So the house needs to go up 6 percent just to break even in the most ideal scenario.
- thfuran 3y ago
  Typical transaction costs for a sale with agents are 6% before closing costs.
- delfinom 3y ago
  Meh, the lawyers I've dealt with for real estate only charge between $1.5k-$3k per transaction since it's largely all boilerplate review for them that they do a lot. It's the real estate agent that take a 6% cut. Lol
rhelz 3y ago
Exactly how are you supposed to buy a house without a steady FAANG salary for 30 years?
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  You probably just don't? If you really want to, wait until you're married with dual income and buy significantly under your budget. That might mean a longer commute and your kids sharing a room, but you won't be having panic attacks during every performance review for the next three decades.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    That’s what we did. We should have bought sooner, we would have saved a lot. But we’re happy owning now and not having to worry about what rent will be next year. Hopefully in a few years we’ll refinance at a lower rate and have a lot more principal paid down. If you’re having kids and you want a big place (we want neither), there are plenty of places in the country where houses (big ones) are a quarter of what they are in the Bay, Seattle, etc. Sure, you won’t be making $350k/year as a senior but the schools will be excellent, your kids will be safer and if one of you lose your jobs it won’t matter because you’ll have a massive emergency fund and lower expenses.

j7ake 3y ago

> But I never thought I would be pushed out. Famous last words.

rhelz 3y ago

Big clue: the trouble came when he was helping an overcharged customer. At the same time, he must have been exposing bad management (or even fraudulent management) which caused the overcharge in the first place. Ergo, he must be discredited. Ergo, he must be a loser. Ergo, he must be fired.

tibbydudeza 3y ago

We had something called a PIP - it was used to get rid of people instead of helping them.

donor20 3y ago

A new tam finds a “huge” overcharge. Most AWS billing is automated - I think a bit more detail would be helpful on this huge overcharge and refund. For new folks maybe run it up to manager early to figure out approach / insure understanding is good? Hard not to see a link to AWS unhappiness there potentially- and no doubt places did overhire too. Be curious about actual timing - there was a tightening up at a lot of places not too long ago and stealth layoffs via pips etc

d1sxeyes 3y ago

To be clear, he did not lose the deposit on the house because he was put on a performance plan. He lost the deposit on the house because his ability to finish the house he was building was predicated on his salary, which is a normal requirement when you apply for a mortgage. He says: > My wife and I decided to sell our house, take the money, and use it to build a bigger house because we have a large family. This seems to actually mean 'we decided to sell our house, take the money and use it as a deposit on a loan for a bigger house'. As I understand, he did not actually have the cash to buy the bigger house. > So I lost my job. I was building a house. I lost my house because I couldn't close on that. I lost $110,000 that there's no way I'm going to get back. He did not 'lose' his job. He quit. He mentions that he processed a big refund for a customer—it's indeed possible that this caused him to be flagged for closer scrutiny. He mentions that he refused to shadow other TAMs to see what they do. He mentions behaviour from his manager which is broadly consistent with how a manager would treat an underperformer (minuted references to failures to meet documented expectations). His deposit is big but he's building a house. It's not the construction firms' fault he can't follow through, and it is reasonable that he 'loses' it (although again, the circumstances here are a bit unclear—he doesn't have anything at all to show for that money? Not even the land?) I'm no big Amazon fan, but this seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. He chose not to follow the recommendations of his manager when he was on a PIP, decided to take matters into his own hands and resign, collected a severance package, and now complains that he can't get a mortgage any more now he doesn't have a job.

salil999 3y ago
You're under the assumption that the PIP process is fair. I'm a former AWS employee (never on PIP) but I've seen it being applied to very smart and capable individuals. It's just a game of what manager likes you.
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  It is also well known that Amazon has (or has had) target attrition percentages. Managers are expected to oust a quota. The only blame the author deserves is the financial leap of faith that he'd hit the big time by landing a job at Amazon.

netsharc 3y ago

Tangential nitpick: huh, a sentence or two per paragraph. This is like reading a Twitter thread, but hey long Twitter threads always grinds my gears, so putting everything in 1 article is a lot better. But geez, it's like an article from BuzzFeed (the part that wasn't award-winning) or written by a 5th grader.

costanzaDynasty 3y ago

Any company that pays much higher than the average for the same role should be considered as a temporary job and should be used to enhance savings goals. In giant corporations you either move up or you move out.

thrway63245 3y ago

When his manager was documenting every interaction this guy was already in Focus. Amazon has a secret stage where they don't tell you that you are in the program, but they'll block a team change if you try to move. Also, their policy is to not deny it if directly questioned, so if you are at Amazon and you see this excessive documentation - immediately ask your manager if you are in Focus and if you hear a yes - start interviewing.

ttr2021 3y ago

I had a similar experience, but I joined AWS support, in a pretty challenging role (big data profile). My first 3 months were training (almost none of it on any big data technologies) taking cases and working with other support engineers. The role itself was very demanding, very little prep with the transition to the actual role, and I felt lost most of the time. Learning how AWS puts their services together was most of the challenge and to be honest the and my manager (normal IT guy) didn't really understand the basics or complexity of the cases we were dealing with at all from several conversations I had with him. He oversimplified just about everything. At some point in time 6 months into the role, he decides to move to a different area. My new manager was like "oh I see you are on a performance improvement program". This was the first I had ever heard of it. After explaining myself to the new manager and doing a few kickass cases for very large customers, I was actually sent on training at Amazon HQ and from there I never looked back, and ended up becoming a global big data SME in professional services. So from there point of view I was worth the investment (especially at ~2-3500 a day billable to customers!). But I'll never forget that my manager wanted me out after only 6 months, working with some of the most difficult customers and most difficult support cases I think AWS support has to deal with..