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Banning it instead of fixing the drivers. I guess that is the easiest way to fix the immediate problem but it's not a long term solution to the problem that as

Banning it instead of fixing the drivers. I guess that is the easiest way to fix the immediate problem but it's not a long term solution to the problem that as cars have gotten smarter drivers have gotten dumber, more distracted and more of them on the road. I really think there needs to be some continuing education requirements for driving. What we have in this country is the vast majority of people learned to drive when they were teenagers in a basic driving skills course and then never learned anything else. So there's decades of experience in only the most perfunctory driving skills. I firmly believe that most have forgotten the rules of the road and could no longer pass the written test. Considering most written tests have been redone to no longer require obscure fixed distance measurements, this is pretty scary. Anyone who has a driver's license should be able to pass the written test as the same thing you do when driving. Maybe some sort of randomized testing lottery every year. Each year everyone's name gets tossed in to a hat and 20% get pulled for taking the test and luck protection so it's at least once in 5 years. Taking and passing an accredited advanced driving class with behind the wheel time would exempt you from the lottery for 10 years. I don't know if that's the right solution but something needs done to get people to realize they are in charge of heavy equipment and mishandling it is dangerous. Too many times have I pulled up second to a stop sign and the first person seems confused about who goes, or they have no clue what to do for a flashing yellow light. Idiots not knowing how (and when) to safely make a right turn on red is a symptom of a much larger problem.

BoorishBears 3y ago
I walk, drive and bike in SF, and I think a super unpopular opinion that needs to gain more traction is that non-vehicles should get more intelligent too. People here seem to have zero sense of self-preservation here: constantly staring at phones, ignoring crossing signals and stop signs, not even glancing to confirm they're not hiding in an A pillar, even sometimes seemingly wanting to challenge cars. I personally had a horrifyingly close call with a pedestrian while driving: a lady in all black, on a rainy night, jaywalking in an intersection with poor visibility due to a steep incline. The person didn't even break stride after what was a close enough call for me to pull over for a moment... _ At the end of the day I get it's super hip to push the cars are disgusting and drivers are evil angle in this city, but if a car hits you, you lose: all the laws and punishments and moral superiority in the world will not unbreak your bones. It will console no one that the driver was summarily shot out of a cannon or never drove again compared to if you had just not been hurt. The notion that your safety is primarily someone else's responsibility crumbles under that simple reality. Safety is a collective concept, we all play a part in it.
- Guvante 3y ago
  None of this says "we shouldn't eliminate unsafe rules" which is exactly what right on red is. Right on red leads to drivers "stopping" in the sidewalk (or California stopping), failing to check to their right due to hyper focus on finding an opening in opposite traffic, and leads to less safe opportunities where pedestrians know they can cross. Jaywalking and similar is particularly due to this. What is the benefit of walking all the way to the crosswalk if you are expected to avoid all collisions whether you are there or elsewhere? To make it worse intersections have four ways cars come from at least roads otherwise only have two.
  - elmerfud 3y ago
    It's not that the rules are unsafe it's that bad drivers are doing bad behavior that is unsafe. Everything that the article cites as the problem with right turn on red has nothing at all to do with the law it has to do with bad drivers even in your examples it's about drivers who are bad and not paying attention to their surroundings. This is my point changing the rule is a short-term solution that does nothing to address the long-term problem of making people better drivers.
    - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
      I hear this argument a lot, that we just need to improve bad, selfish or distracted people, not make things safer in general. Maybe I'm cynical, but they will always exist, and we are also them sometimes too. Speaking for myself as a UK resident, we do not have this turn on a red light rule, and I feel much safer knowing that when a light is red, traffic almost always isn't coming at me.
    - Guvante 3y ago
      If you need the throughput gains of right on red 9 times out of 10 you have a dedicated arrow that avoids turning on when pedestrians can cross. There is no meaningful impact on delay when you have to wait for the green. People are just impatient. You are arguing that good drivers don't get into accidents which is fundamentally flawed reasoning. We could remove all signage if everyone was good drivers, in fact some places with low traffic have and reduced accidents due to everyone focusing on others instead of signage.

BoorishBears 3y ago

I walk, drive and bike in SF, and I think a super unpopular opinion that needs to gain more traction is that non-vehicles should get more intelligent too. People here seem to have zero sense of self-preservation here: constantly staring at phones, ignoring crossing signals and stop signs, not even glancing to confirm they're not hiding in an A pillar, even sometimes seemingly wanting to challenge cars. I personally had a horrifyingly close call with a pedestrian while driving: a lady in all black, on a rainy night, jaywalking in an intersection with poor visibility due to a steep incline. The person didn't even break stride after what was a close enough call for me to pull over for a moment... _ At the end of the day I get it's super hip to push the cars are disgusting and drivers are evil angle in this city, but if a car hits you, you lose: all the laws and punishments and moral superiority in the world will not unbreak your bones. It will console no one that the driver was summarily shot out of a cannon or never drove again compared to if you had just not been hurt. The notion that your safety is primarily someone else's responsibility crumbles under that simple reality. Safety is a collective concept, we all play a part in it.

Guvante 3y ago
None of this says "we shouldn't eliminate unsafe rules" which is exactly what right on red is. Right on red leads to drivers "stopping" in the sidewalk (or California stopping), failing to check to their right due to hyper focus on finding an opening in opposite traffic, and leads to less safe opportunities where pedestrians know they can cross. Jaywalking and similar is particularly due to this. What is the benefit of walking all the way to the crosswalk if you are expected to avoid all collisions whether you are there or elsewhere? To make it worse intersections have four ways cars come from at least roads otherwise only have two.
- elmerfud 3y ago
  It's not that the rules are unsafe it's that bad drivers are doing bad behavior that is unsafe. Everything that the article cites as the problem with right turn on red has nothing at all to do with the law it has to do with bad drivers even in your examples it's about drivers who are bad and not paying attention to their surroundings. This is my point changing the rule is a short-term solution that does nothing to address the long-term problem of making people better drivers.
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    I hear this argument a lot, that we just need to improve bad, selfish or distracted people, not make things safer in general. Maybe I'm cynical, but they will always exist, and we are also them sometimes too. Speaking for myself as a UK resident, we do not have this turn on a red light rule, and I feel much safer knowing that when a light is red, traffic almost always isn't coming at me.
  - Guvante 3y ago
    If you need the throughput gains of right on red 9 times out of 10 you have a dedicated arrow that avoids turning on when pedestrians can cross. There is no meaningful impact on delay when you have to wait for the green. People are just impatient. You are arguing that good drivers don't get into accidents which is fundamentally flawed reasoning. We could remove all signage if everyone was good drivers, in fact some places with low traffic have and reduced accidents due to everyone focusing on others instead of signage.