3 ms·

China isn’t going to stop using riscv no matter what the US says It’ll just force them to be self sufficient faster

londons_explore 3y ago
The US is clearly targeting Google releasing Android for RISC-V, or Qualcomm releasing RISC-V chips which can run RISC-V Android. RISC-V has been an 'obvious' choice for Android for a long time - particularly for lower end devices or set-top-box type designs where the vendor has control of all the software (no third party binaries that need arm emulation). The fact an official RISC-V port is soon to be released, I suspect is the reason behind this activity now.
- photonbeam 3y ago
  There will still be US suppliers who want riscv android, so google will still do it. China could still design their own riscv chips and run AOSP without google, so it wouldn’t change much
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    But without Google making all the app ecosystem support RISC-V, I suspect any RISC-V phone would have a chicken and egg problem - with no apps available, no user would want to run it. Google is in a unique position to solve that by making the toolchain automatically compile for RISC-V as well, and in a matter of months most apps will support it.
    - miohtama 3y ago
      Google is in unique position, because they are a company with a track record delivering software in massive ecosystem scale. Non-US companies like Samsung, Nokia, and every Chinese company, cannot write quality software, based on the 25 years of track record. This is why they all depend on Google for Android. This has been discussed earlier on HN why is this and it comes down to corporate culture and such matters.
- Narishma 3y ago
  How would that change anything in regards to China having access to RISC-V?
- snvzz 3y ago
  AOSP already supports RISC-V. Reverting course wouldn't prevent China from using the code they already have, which in the first place was largely contributed by companies based in China.
yarg 3y ago
They don't have the technology or the expertise to produce high quality, high performance chips. It's a moot point whether or not they have access to the specs, and the only reason to think otherwise is buying into chinese propaganda. Like this blatant bullshit: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3236924/huaweis-chip-breakthrough-china-has-won-battle-if-not-war https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3236924/huaweis...
- skullone 3y ago
  Saying "someone doesn't have the technology or expertise" is a point in time statement only true that moment. Progress marches ever forward, and China has quite a few exceptional engineers and scientists (and money) to pursue their objectives.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > China has quite a few exceptional engineers and scientists (and money) to pursue their objectives They could, if they played the long game: "... the only way that China is going to break through the 5nm barrier is by going back not just a few years but a few decades: Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE), China’s answer to ASML, is building fully home-grown lithography machines using krypton fluoride lasers (Krf); this is previous generation DUV — first introduced around the turn of the century — using wavelengths of 248nm (current DUV processes use argon fluoride lasers (Arf) to achieve 193nm wavelengths). What SMEE specifically and China broadly needs to do is move down the learning curve for lithography. SMEE needs to learn how to use Arf, then immersion, and then EUV. It doesn’t need to take 20 years, either: while ASML needed to invent everything, SMEE has the luxury of already knowing what is possible; the same thing applies to every other part of the semiconductor value chain. This, then, gets at why this PR cycle could be bad for China: the Mate 60 is a short-term propaganda victory that threatens to distract leaders who don’t understand semiconductors from facing up to and fully investing in the long road to semiconductor independence; it’s harder to accept that it might take 15 years when you have 7nm capability in hand right now." https://stratechery.com/2023/the-huawei-mate-60-pro-7nm-background-implications-and-reactions/ https://stratechery.com/2023/the-huawei-mate-60-pro-7nm-back... Unfortunately, Xi is a dictator. Dictators don't have the luxury of playing long games.

The US is clearly targeting Google releasing Android for RISC-V, or Qualcomm releasing RISC-V chips which can run RISC-V Android. RISC-V has been an 'obvious' choice for Android for a long time - particularly for lower end devices or set-top-box type designs where the vendor has control of all the software (no third party binaries that need arm emulation). The fact an official RISC-V port is soon to be released, I suspect is the reason behind this activity now.

photonbeam 3y ago
There will still be US suppliers who want riscv android, so google will still do it. China could still design their own riscv chips and run AOSP without google, so it wouldn’t change much
- londons_explore 3y ago
  But without Google making all the app ecosystem support RISC-V, I suspect any RISC-V phone would have a chicken and egg problem - with no apps available, no user would want to run it. Google is in a unique position to solve that by making the toolchain automatically compile for RISC-V as well, and in a matter of months most apps will support it.
  - miohtama 3y ago
    Google is in unique position, because they are a company with a track record delivering software in massive ecosystem scale. Non-US companies like Samsung, Nokia, and every Chinese company, cannot write quality software, based on the 25 years of track record. This is why they all depend on Google for Android. This has been discussed earlier on HN why is this and it comes down to corporate culture and such matters.
Narishma 3y ago
How would that change anything in regards to China having access to RISC-V?
snvzz 3y ago
AOSP already supports RISC-V. Reverting course wouldn't prevent China from using the code they already have, which in the first place was largely contributed by companies based in China.

yarg 3y ago

They don't have the technology or the expertise to produce high quality, high performance chips. It's a moot point whether or not they have access to the specs, and the only reason to think otherwise is buying into chinese propaganda. Like this blatant bullshit: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3236924/huaweis-chip-breakthrough-china-has-won-battle-if-not-war https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3236924/huaweis...

skullone 3y ago
Saying "someone doesn't have the technology or expertise" is a point in time statement only true that moment. Progress marches ever forward, and China has quite a few exceptional engineers and scientists (and money) to pursue their objectives.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > China has quite a few exceptional engineers and scientists (and money) to pursue their objectives They could, if they played the long game: "... the only way that China is going to break through the 5nm barrier is by going back not just a few years but a few decades: Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE), China’s answer to ASML, is building fully home-grown lithography machines using krypton fluoride lasers (Krf); this is previous generation DUV — first introduced around the turn of the century — using wavelengths of 248nm (current DUV processes use argon fluoride lasers (Arf) to achieve 193nm wavelengths). What SMEE specifically and China broadly needs to do is move down the learning curve for lithography. SMEE needs to learn how to use Arf, then immersion, and then EUV. It doesn’t need to take 20 years, either: while ASML needed to invent everything, SMEE has the luxury of already knowing what is possible; the same thing applies to every other part of the semiconductor value chain. This, then, gets at why this PR cycle could be bad for China: the Mate 60 is a short-term propaganda victory that threatens to distract leaders who don’t understand semiconductors from facing up to and fully investing in the long road to semiconductor independence; it’s harder to accept that it might take 15 years when you have 7nm capability in hand right now." https://stratechery.com/2023/the-huawei-mate-60-pro-7nm-background-implications-and-reactions/ https://stratechery.com/2023/the-huawei-mate-60-pro-7nm-back... Unfortunately, Xi is a dictator. Dictators don't have the luxury of playing long games.