5 ms·

I know it's naive of me to hope, but I hope that if a large part of the "western" world is affected by the gulf stream weakening then more definitive action wil

I know it's naive of me to hope, but I hope that if a large part of the "western" world is affected by the gulf stream weakening then more definitive action will be taken against climate change. Something related in the novel Project Hail Mary affected me greatly: "I've run the best models I have. Crops are going to fail. The global staple crops are wheat, barley, millet, potatoes, soy, and most important of all, rice. All of them are pretty sensitive about temperature ranges. If your rice paddy freezes over, the rice dies. If your potato farm floods, the potatoes die. And if your wheat farm experiences ten times normal humidity, it gets fungal parasites and dies." Sure, we may not be looking at freezing rice paddies, but flooding is absolutely affecting people all over the world due to the warmer air holding more moisture. Not at all a happy thought, I'm sorry.

myshpa 3y ago
> more definitive action will be taken against climate change a) our problem is not only the climate change, but overshoot / polycrisis b) there is a profit to be made even from the collapse, maybe bigger than ever Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system.
- lacrimacida 3y ago
  > Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system Oh well, the system may simply collapse and not be able and it won’t be pretty. But that will be a starting point for rebuilding.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  > Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system. I don't want you to be correct, but I fear that you are. My heart breaks thinking about it. My stepdaughter is 23, and she's going to live through some very tough times. People in positions of power and influence seem to think they can flee to New Zealand and life will continue as before. I don't know how to disabuse them of that notion.
  - ta988 3y ago
    A lot of people are making money by building fear in the ultra rich. They are really gullible. Really hard to bring people that have been scammed up to reason.
    - lacrimacida 3y ago
      Fear is being being built everywhere and everyone is very gullible, including the poor.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Maybe the biggest problem is how big a problem it is. The extent of the problems we're facing may be too overwhelming for the average person to fully comprehend. Overshoot encompasses many aspects, including biodiversity loss, deforestation, pollution, resource depletion, and much more. The fundamental issue is the need for constant growth in a finite environment. Almost all money in the system is created through loans by banks, and there is an interest on that money that must be paid, typically around 3% or so, and this interest compounds exponentially. As a result, our growth is exponential, and there is no sign of it slowing down. Our GDP doubles every 30 years, while our finite natural environment is the first to be sacrificed in an attempt to service one's debts. All we see is an attempt at solving the energy, and only partially - because it's the easiest problem. We don't see any real debate about degrowth, reforestation, equity, food system, financial system ... no real progress on any front. - We should stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible. - Transitioning to plant-based diets can free up an area the size of both Americas, allowing for reforestation that would halt biodiversity loss and sequester as much carbon as we've released since the Industrial Revolution. - Agriculture must be reformed to eliminate our reliance on harmful pesticides and practices that destroy biodiversity. - Overfishing and pollution must be stopped to preserve marine life and ecosystems. - Developed countries should pursue degrowth while supporting the development of less developed nations. - Education and restoration should be prioritized over exploitation. Animal species have witnessed a 70% decline in just the last 50 years. How long until our insect and pollinator populations collapse? How long until forests completely lose their ability to retain moisture and generate rain? How long until oceans are devoid of fish or sharks (with 90% already gone), leading to the collapse of the entire marine ecosystem? How long until major crop failures occur? There have been collapses of civilizations before, but there has never been a total collapse of the biosphere as well. So I too worry for the future of today's young. Sorry for the rant.
- SirMaster 3y ago
  So if it’s inevitable, what are the possible positive effects? Are there regions that benefit from the changes that will happen to the weather? New places that can be used to grow things, new places that might be more appealing to live than it is now? Should we start looking at transitioning to the changes that you say are inevitable?
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > So if it’s inevitable, what are the possible positive effects? I cannot see any positive effects. We should try to prevent the inevitable, while there's still some time. Not long. But some. > Should we start looking at transitioning to the changes I’m starting to think we're likely to face a future akin to that depicted in Threads (1984) or The Road (2009), and I’m not sure anyone can truly prepare for it.
    - SirMaster 3y ago
      What do you mean though when you say you see no positive effects? You see negative effects because scientists who have spent great time and effort have found connections to and predicted negative effects. Has anyone spent a similar amount of time and effort looking for positive effects? If not, how can we expect to know about any positive effects?
- p1mrx 3y ago
  > Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system. For now, American citizens can ask congress to support a carbon fee and dividend [1], which would create a financial incentive for the system to dismantle itself. There are few forces in the world more powerful than individuals deciding to save money. [1] https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy-innovation-act/ https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy...
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Congress doesn't even have a speaker of the house to put forth a bill to vote on.
    - p1mrx 3y ago
      Sounds like they'll have plenty of time to read some email.
Yoric 3y ago
Sadly, we have reached a stage at which change is much harder – first because we've waited way too long, secondly because the West is currently faced with a war (which might be in the process of blowing up into a world war, we'll see), a financial crisis and a democratic crisis. So... I'm not optimistic.
graemep 3y ago
It is increasingly out of control of the western world: most CO2 emissions are now coming from Asia - and the current trend is falling emissions in the west, more than offset by rising emissions in the rest of the world. Some countries (China and Russia) see advantages in warming for themselves (shipping through the arctic for both, increasing agricultural land area for both). I generated a little graph showing the trends (using Our World In Data) and wrote a few comments a while back: https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/03/co2-emissions-will-keep-rising https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/03/co2-emissions-will-keep-risin...
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Good god. That's a sobering graph.
- helij 3y ago
  This[0] paints slightly different picture about 'rest of the world', especially China. [0]https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

myshpa 3y ago

> more definitive action will be taken against climate change a) our problem is not only the climate change, but overshoot / polycrisis b) there is a profit to be made even from the collapse, maybe bigger than ever Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system.

lacrimacida 3y ago
> Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system Oh well, the system may simply collapse and not be able and it won’t be pretty. But that will be a starting point for rebuilding.
bloopernova 3y ago
> Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system. I don't want you to be correct, but I fear that you are. My heart breaks thinking about it. My stepdaughter is 23, and she's going to live through some very tough times. People in positions of power and influence seem to think they can flee to New Zealand and life will continue as before. I don't know how to disabuse them of that notion.
- ta988 3y ago
  A lot of people are making money by building fear in the ultra rich. They are really gullible. Really hard to bring people that have been scammed up to reason.
  - lacrimacida 3y ago
    Fear is being being built everywhere and everyone is very gullible, including the poor.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Maybe the biggest problem is how big a problem it is. The extent of the problems we're facing may be too overwhelming for the average person to fully comprehend. Overshoot encompasses many aspects, including biodiversity loss, deforestation, pollution, resource depletion, and much more. The fundamental issue is the need for constant growth in a finite environment. Almost all money in the system is created through loans by banks, and there is an interest on that money that must be paid, typically around 3% or so, and this interest compounds exponentially. As a result, our growth is exponential, and there is no sign of it slowing down. Our GDP doubles every 30 years, while our finite natural environment is the first to be sacrificed in an attempt to service one's debts. All we see is an attempt at solving the energy, and only partially - because it's the easiest problem. We don't see any real debate about degrowth, reforestation, equity, food system, financial system ... no real progress on any front. - We should stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible. - Transitioning to plant-based diets can free up an area the size of both Americas, allowing for reforestation that would halt biodiversity loss and sequester as much carbon as we've released since the Industrial Revolution. - Agriculture must be reformed to eliminate our reliance on harmful pesticides and practices that destroy biodiversity. - Overfishing and pollution must be stopped to preserve marine life and ecosystems. - Developed countries should pursue degrowth while supporting the development of less developed nations. - Education and restoration should be prioritized over exploitation. Animal species have witnessed a 70% decline in just the last 50 years. How long until our insect and pollinator populations collapse? How long until forests completely lose their ability to retain moisture and generate rain? How long until oceans are devoid of fish or sharks (with 90% already gone), leading to the collapse of the entire marine ecosystem? How long until major crop failures occur? There have been collapses of civilizations before, but there has never been a total collapse of the biosphere as well. So I too worry for the future of today's young. Sorry for the rant.
SirMaster 3y ago
So if it’s inevitable, what are the possible positive effects? Are there regions that benefit from the changes that will happen to the weather? New places that can be used to grow things, new places that might be more appealing to live than it is now? Should we start looking at transitioning to the changes that you say are inevitable?
- myshpa 3y ago
  > So if it’s inevitable, what are the possible positive effects? I cannot see any positive effects. We should try to prevent the inevitable, while there's still some time. Not long. But some. > Should we start looking at transitioning to the changes I’m starting to think we're likely to face a future akin to that depicted in Threads (1984) or The Road (2009), and I’m not sure anyone can truly prepare for it.
  - SirMaster 3y ago
    What do you mean though when you say you see no positive effects? You see negative effects because scientists who have spent great time and effort have found connections to and predicted negative effects. Has anyone spent a similar amount of time and effort looking for positive effects? If not, how can we expect to know about any positive effects?
p1mrx 3y ago
> Nothing will get changed, because solving the problems would mean dismantling the system. For now, American citizens can ask congress to support a carbon fee and dividend [1], which would create a financial incentive for the system to dismantle itself. There are few forces in the world more powerful than individuals deciding to save money. [1] https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy-innovation-act/ https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy...
- pixl97 3y ago
  Congress doesn't even have a speaker of the house to put forth a bill to vote on.
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    Sounds like they'll have plenty of time to read some email.

Yoric 3y ago

Sadly, we have reached a stage at which change is much harder – first because we've waited way too long, secondly because the West is currently faced with a war (which might be in the process of blowing up into a world war, we'll see), a financial crisis and a democratic crisis. So... I'm not optimistic.

graemep 3y ago

It is increasingly out of control of the western world: most CO2 emissions are now coming from Asia - and the current trend is falling emissions in the west, more than offset by rising emissions in the rest of the world. Some countries (China and Russia) see advantages in warming for themselves (shipping through the arctic for both, increasing agricultural land area for both). I generated a little graph showing the trends (using Our World In Data) and wrote a few comments a while back: https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/03/co2-emissions-will-keep-rising https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/03/co2-emissions-will-keep-risin...

bloopernova 3y ago
Good god. That's a sobering graph.
helij 3y ago
This[0] paints slightly different picture about 'rest of the world', especially China. [0]https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...