34 ms·

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

jgalt212 3y ago
Indeed, parts of East Side Access cost $1 million per foot. https://www.ocregister.com/2015/11/04/tunnel-to-grand-central-rolling-along-at-1million-per-foot/ https://www.ocregister.com/2015/11/04/tunnel-to-grand-centra...
- bradleyjg 3y ago
  … and it’s made commutes worse for almost everyone. Imagine spending that much money and that many years and ending up with a net negative.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > it’s made commutes worse for almost everyone How?
    - bradleyjg 3y ago
      They changed the schedules around to have some trains go to grand central from every line but there’s limited numbers of trains, track space, and platforms at Jamaica. The upshot is that there are fewer peak express trains at good commuting times and transfers at Jamaica are no longer synchronized by time and track. The Oyster Bay line has been hit particularly badly. On top of that because of how far underground the gcs platforms are and the fact that the old Hunters Point Ave method wasn’t that bad, even people that work on the east side aren’t seeing big benefits, if any.
jseliger 3y ago
Voters don't seem to vote in ways that are consistent with improving subway building functionality.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Which way would that be?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    One priority would have to be getting the NY state government out of the city’s public transportation organizations. Right now, everything is subject to state politics because the state controls the MTA. Another would be making motorized individual methods of transit more and more painful and expanding bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure (this is often two birds with one stone). This will get the public to support politicians that make public transportation the priority.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      That’s not a policy priority or choice - NYC bankrupted mass transit decades ago and the bailout consisted of a grand merger between the bridge tolls and transit. The current situation is a result. It’s a public authority secured by bonds. Unless the feds decide to pump billions of dollars into NYS/NYC, nothing happens unless the organization is insolvent again.
    - mancerayder 3y ago
      How does shoving more people into the subway system help? The income? The trains are packed on the 'in the office ' days like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And pre pandemic the 45, F and other trains were rush hour torture. Now more apartments are built. But the trains run less frequently. But we're installing elevators everywhere and making all stations accessible, and that, plus the ridiculous running of trains overnight, are priorities.
  - MarcusDJ 3y ago
    [dead]
- mandevil 3y ago
  The problem is that NYC doesn't control the MTA: it was taken under state control back in 1968. And the governor has too many other issues on his/her plate to care enough to give the agency the top-to-bottom revamp it desperately needs. No one gets elected governor of the whole state of NY by campaigning on 'I'll fix NYC's subways' as a message, and indeed some of the more recent governors (Pataki, A. Cuomo) seemed to delight in stomping all over the mayor of NYC and use that for political gain.
throw7 3y ago
Is that why byford failed? Meaning that do you know that byford did not recognize what "anyone needs reminding" knew that nyc "can't build" is the problem?
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Byford recognized it, and then his boss proceeded to undermine him so he left. He wasn’t there long enough to effect the solution to decades of poor investment and managing.
squirrel6 3y ago
We just need another Robert Moses /s
- booleandilemma 3y ago
  We need another Giuliani (90s Giuliani, not what he's become).
  - officialchicken 3y ago
    Ok, that made me laugh. His only contribution to MTA in the 90's was to replace the old metal subway tokens with (first paper, then plastic) swipe tickets.
    - booleandilemma 3y ago
      I mean a mayor like Giuliani would see the state the city is in and improve it. Unlike this clown Adams, who is doing absolutely nothing. Keep laughing though.
Spooky23 3y ago
Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.
- ghaff 3y ago
  >will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there Which is the attitude that a lot of people who live in larger cities have. "I don't want people driving or otherwise coming into my city." But most cities aren't sustainable on that basis.
  - decafninja 3y ago
    Someone will inevitably reply that the suburbs are not sustainable and it’s the cities that are propping them up.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Many/most of the people in suburbs/exurbs around me go into (or don't go into) suburban/exurban offices and local businesses. They rarely go into the major city 40 miles away. When I do, it's mostly to go to the airport or a play every 2-3 months. From a tech perspective, until the West Coast companies started opening satellite offices in the city, it basically didn't have any tech companies any longer and was losing population.
    - kouru225 3y ago
      This is an objectively true statement. Suburbs do not pay for their own maintenance and cities have to carry their economic weight: https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=zYfcwVLx0DYoexnM https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=zYfcwVLx0DYoexnM
      - Retric 3y ago
        Depends greatly on the suburb, many are subsidized but it’s a long way from all.
downrightmike 3y ago
Yall are going to need some elevated trains as building underground is just insane.
- afavour 3y ago
  Ironically NYC used to have an absolute ton. In fact a number of the underground lines we have today were direct replacements for the overhead lines, which were unsightly and very noisy. These days I have to imagine we could create something much quieter but very few people are going to advocate for their sunlight to be blocked by an overhead train line.
  - kouru225 3y ago
    We could build something quieter but I don’t think it would be compatible with the rest of the subway system
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    Yeah, this is what I was referencing
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  NYC has lots of elevated trains. And other cities around the world are able to build tunnels more cheaply than NYC, there's nothing insane about it.
redwood 3y ago
Can we at least have mobile data please

jgalt212 3y ago

Indeed, parts of East Side Access cost $1 million per foot. https://www.ocregister.com/2015/11/04/tunnel-to-grand-central-rolling-along-at-1million-per-foot/ https://www.ocregister.com/2015/11/04/tunnel-to-grand-centra...

bradleyjg 3y ago
… and it’s made commutes worse for almost everyone. Imagine spending that much money and that many years and ending up with a net negative.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > it’s made commutes worse for almost everyone How?
  - bradleyjg 3y ago
    They changed the schedules around to have some trains go to grand central from every line but there’s limited numbers of trains, track space, and platforms at Jamaica. The upshot is that there are fewer peak express trains at good commuting times and transfers at Jamaica are no longer synchronized by time and track. The Oyster Bay line has been hit particularly badly. On top of that because of how far underground the gcs platforms are and the fact that the old Hunters Point Ave method wasn’t that bad, even people that work on the east side aren’t seeing big benefits, if any.

jseliger 3y ago

Voters don't seem to vote in ways that are consistent with improving subway building functionality.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
Which way would that be?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  One priority would have to be getting the NY state government out of the city’s public transportation organizations. Right now, everything is subject to state politics because the state controls the MTA. Another would be making motorized individual methods of transit more and more painful and expanding bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure (this is often two birds with one stone). This will get the public to support politicians that make public transportation the priority.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    That’s not a policy priority or choice - NYC bankrupted mass transit decades ago and the bailout consisted of a grand merger between the bridge tolls and transit. The current situation is a result. It’s a public authority secured by bonds. Unless the feds decide to pump billions of dollars into NYS/NYC, nothing happens unless the organization is insolvent again.
  - mancerayder 3y ago
    How does shoving more people into the subway system help? The income? The trains are packed on the 'in the office ' days like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And pre pandemic the 45, F and other trains were rush hour torture. Now more apartments are built. But the trains run less frequently. But we're installing elevators everywhere and making all stations accessible, and that, plus the ridiculous running of trains overnight, are priorities.
- MarcusDJ 3y ago
  [dead]
mandevil 3y ago
The problem is that NYC doesn't control the MTA: it was taken under state control back in 1968. And the governor has too many other issues on his/her plate to care enough to give the agency the top-to-bottom revamp it desperately needs. No one gets elected governor of the whole state of NY by campaigning on 'I'll fix NYC's subways' as a message, and indeed some of the more recent governors (Pataki, A. Cuomo) seemed to delight in stomping all over the mayor of NYC and use that for political gain.

throw7 3y ago

Is that why byford failed? Meaning that do you know that byford did not recognize what "anyone needs reminding" knew that nyc "can't build" is the problem?

bobthepanda 3y ago
Byford recognized it, and then his boss proceeded to undermine him so he left. He wasn’t there long enough to effect the solution to decades of poor investment and managing.

squirrel6 3y ago

We just need another Robert Moses /s

booleandilemma 3y ago
We need another Giuliani (90s Giuliani, not what he's become).
- officialchicken 3y ago
  Ok, that made me laugh. His only contribution to MTA in the 90's was to replace the old metal subway tokens with (first paper, then plastic) swipe tickets.
  - booleandilemma 3y ago
    I mean a mayor like Giuliani would see the state the city is in and improve it. Unlike this clown Adams, who is doing absolutely nothing. Keep laughing though.

Spooky23 3y ago

Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

ghaff 3y ago
>will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there Which is the attitude that a lot of people who live in larger cities have. "I don't want people driving or otherwise coming into my city." But most cities aren't sustainable on that basis.
- decafninja 3y ago
  Someone will inevitably reply that the suburbs are not sustainable and it’s the cities that are propping them up.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Many/most of the people in suburbs/exurbs around me go into (or don't go into) suburban/exurban offices and local businesses. They rarely go into the major city 40 miles away. When I do, it's mostly to go to the airport or a play every 2-3 months. From a tech perspective, until the West Coast companies started opening satellite offices in the city, it basically didn't have any tech companies any longer and was losing population.
  - kouru225 3y ago
    This is an objectively true statement. Suburbs do not pay for their own maintenance and cities have to carry their economic weight: https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=zYfcwVLx0DYoexnM https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=zYfcwVLx0DYoexnM
    - Retric 3y ago
      Depends greatly on the suburb, many are subsidized but it’s a long way from all.

downrightmike 3y ago

Yall are going to need some elevated trains as building underground is just insane.

afavour 3y ago
Ironically NYC used to have an absolute ton. In fact a number of the underground lines we have today were direct replacements for the overhead lines, which were unsightly and very noisy. These days I have to imagine we could create something much quieter but very few people are going to advocate for their sunlight to be blocked by an overhead train line.
- kouru225 3y ago
  We could build something quieter but I don’t think it would be compatible with the rest of the subway system
- downrightmike 3y ago
  Yeah, this is what I was referencing
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
NYC has lots of elevated trains. And other cities around the world are able to build tunnels more cheaply than NYC, there's nothing insane about it.

redwood 3y ago

Can we at least have mobile data please