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The problem is that no one is a libertarian - not even libertarians. The problem is everyone else realizes this, but libertarians don't. And that appropriate t

The problem is that no one is a libertarian - not even libertarians. The problem is everyone else realizes this, but libertarians don't. And that appropriate twitter quote: A: "In your own words, how would you describe libertarians?" B: "House cats. They are convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand."

Racing0461 3y ago
Why is the choice between "libertarianism" and communism/urbanism/collectivism. Maybe some people don't want their immediate way of life dictated by those around them and would prefer some agency and freedom in their daily lives while still wanting to help others. We need a way to help people without those doing the helping/net taxpayers having their way of lives destroyed. (a guy with a SFH not having a 300 room apartment build right next to him, a guy wanting to drive his personal vehicle not having 75% of his roads redirected for bus/bike lanes and can only drive his even numbered license plate on tu/thur) etc. I don't see this happening, so until then, complete opposition.
freedomben 3y ago
You must be using the most extreme and uncharitable definition of "libertarian" imaginable, because nobody I know that calls themselves libertarian thinks they are 100% independent. The very notion is just absurd. This strikes me as the same vein as people saying "nobody is a communist, because everybody believes their toothbrush is their private property"
- RajT88 3y ago
  These people do exist. I have a cousin who actually believes taxes are theft (when pressed he will walk it back to "extortion"). He believes he does not owe the government anything, and neither does anyone else. He also gets mad at the roads not being well maintained. These two things cannot go together. I have an uncle on the other side of the family which is similar. In the rare cases I have sparred with them on social media, I helpfully advised they investigate the rugged beauty of Antarctica.
  - latency-guy2 3y ago
    Supposedly, the government that currently exists appears to tax the entire US population for a number of things, one of those things being infrastructure. This is widely known and not a thing that just came into existence within the bounds of this comment. So logically, is it hypocritical to assume the government is not doing its duty when it taxes the entire population, and the outcome is poorly maintained roads? If that's hypocritical, then all communists and socialists are more extreme versions since the vast majority of them live in capitalist societies and do nothing to live their ideals.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Your comment is correct in isolation, but you're shifting the definition from people in general[1] to "governments" which means despite being true, it is not a refutation to the above. Previously we were talking about people believing they are completely independent, that is not relying on another person for anything or thinking that they are purely an island. What you are describing are beliefs about governments. Anarcho-capitalist Libertarians do believe as you say about governments, but they absolutely don't believe they are independent of other people. They believe they are very dependent on other people and on societies in general, especially markets. They advocate for a completely free market, free of government interference, but this is very different than believing they are entirely self-sufficient without other humans. [1]: See "full text of the letter" from TFA. It's quite clear that he is talking about humanity in general, not governments. (https://officechai.com/stories/steve-jobs-email-to-self/ https://officechai.com/stories/steve-jobs-email-to-self/)
jprete 3y ago
This is an absurdly uncharitable description and sounds like a bad caricature. There are lots of good criticisms of libertarianism, I don't see a reason to resort to something like this.

Racing0461 3y ago

Why is the choice between "libertarianism" and communism/urbanism/collectivism. Maybe some people don't want their immediate way of life dictated by those around them and would prefer some agency and freedom in their daily lives while still wanting to help others. We need a way to help people without those doing the helping/net taxpayers having their way of lives destroyed. (a guy with a SFH not having a 300 room apartment build right next to him, a guy wanting to drive his personal vehicle not having 75% of his roads redirected for bus/bike lanes and can only drive his even numbered license plate on tu/thur) etc. I don't see this happening, so until then, complete opposition.

freedomben 3y ago

You must be using the most extreme and uncharitable definition of "libertarian" imaginable, because nobody I know that calls themselves libertarian thinks they are 100% independent. The very notion is just absurd. This strikes me as the same vein as people saying "nobody is a communist, because everybody believes their toothbrush is their private property"

RajT88 3y ago
These people do exist. I have a cousin who actually believes taxes are theft (when pressed he will walk it back to "extortion"). He believes he does not owe the government anything, and neither does anyone else. He also gets mad at the roads not being well maintained. These two things cannot go together. I have an uncle on the other side of the family which is similar. In the rare cases I have sparred with them on social media, I helpfully advised they investigate the rugged beauty of Antarctica.
- latency-guy2 3y ago
  Supposedly, the government that currently exists appears to tax the entire US population for a number of things, one of those things being infrastructure. This is widely known and not a thing that just came into existence within the bounds of this comment. So logically, is it hypocritical to assume the government is not doing its duty when it taxes the entire population, and the outcome is poorly maintained roads? If that's hypocritical, then all communists and socialists are more extreme versions since the vast majority of them live in capitalist societies and do nothing to live their ideals.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Your comment is correct in isolation, but you're shifting the definition from people in general[1] to "governments" which means despite being true, it is not a refutation to the above. Previously we were talking about people believing they are completely independent, that is not relying on another person for anything or thinking that they are purely an island. What you are describing are beliefs about governments. Anarcho-capitalist Libertarians do believe as you say about governments, but they absolutely don't believe they are independent of other people. They believe they are very dependent on other people and on societies in general, especially markets. They advocate for a completely free market, free of government interference, but this is very different than believing they are entirely self-sufficient without other humans. [1]: See "full text of the letter" from TFA. It's quite clear that he is talking about humanity in general, not governments. (https://officechai.com/stories/steve-jobs-email-to-self/ https://officechai.com/stories/steve-jobs-email-to-self/)

jprete 3y ago

This is an absurdly uncharitable description and sounds like a bad caricature. There are lots of good criticisms of libertarianism, I don't see a reason to resort to something like this.