5 ms·

Misleading article title. >In the end, plugins represented 18% share of the overall auto market (with a 13% BEV share alone). Regardless, this is a happy tren

Misleading article title. >In the end, plugins represented 18% share of the overall auto market (with a 13% BEV share alone). Regardless, this is a happy trend!

sebzim4500 3y ago
What is misleading? I'm struggling to understand how your quote contradicts the headline.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  The headline includes plugin hybrids, which is an ICE vehicle unless driven purely from battery. Grouping then with BEVs can be misleading depending on what the data is used for.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Mm, indeed. Given the usual intention of "how green are we?", I would suggest counting them as 80% of a "real" EV, for the same reason that I give when the discussion turns to putting PV cells physically on a car[0]: most driving is short trips where this is fine, and the longer trips, while they absolutely exist, are less common. [0] though with different underlying causes that means this is coincidentally 80% and they may diverge
    - rssoconnor 3y ago
      For the record I use about 1.5 L/100km in my Prius Prime. I used to get about 5 L/100km on my Prius. For my Corolla before that, I'd guess it was about 8 L/100km. That said, it is clear to me that the fuel economy one will get with the Prius Prime will depend heavily on the relative frequency of the various trips one takes.
      - arghwhat 3y ago
        In comparison, a modern eco VW UP! is around 2.8L/100km in mixed driving, so 1.5 is about a 2x improvement over a good ICE. My old diesel polo does around 4L/100km, so 2.5x for that one. Not bad, definitely a hell of a lot better than the early Prius, but definitely nowhere near BEV efficiencies. I feel like a small-battery BEV is a better proposition for many, especially as pure BEVs have significantly better pure-electric drive-train efficiency than plugins, and less maintenance.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      It really depends on the instance, as plug-in hybrids have traditionally had rather anemic pure-electric ranges. If it can do, say, ~75km pure electric with reasonable climate comforts, then I imagine it should be able to handle a majority of commutes with just home charging and is for all practical purposes a BEV in daily operation. It gets muddy below that though, requiring either quite limited total daily driving or multiple charge rounds every day...
      - ben_w 3y ago
        While you may use more than 75 km per day (my brother would've at his last place), most people commute between two places in a single city, so they don't need so much — the averages I've heard vary from 12 to 20 miles per day, so 20-32 km total even assuming no charging at work (which I hope would be encouraged by most local governments). But even then: if you go 100 km between charging and the battery only lasts half of it, that's still half your fossil fuel that's replaced with a municipal electric grid that is inherently more efficient even when also purely fossil fuelled, and also is being rapidly greened.
        arghwhat 3y ago
        75 km was to account for two locations within the single city or metropolitan area, with some buffer: 25-30 km each way, leaving 15-25 km as buffer for heating/cooling cabin and battery depending on climate as well as detours like groceries and picking up children. A significant percentage of your range goes out the window when the battery goes cold or you need to heat or cool the cabin. Random online sources[0] seem to suggest that the average daily US commute is 41 miles, or 65 km. The median or geometric average might have been better, but that suggests that the "average US citizen" would require 2 charges per day with less than 75 km of battery range. If you go much shorter than this - say, 20km roundtrip - then you are also getting into bicycle commuting territory, at least outside the US where bikes are given priority in traffic. [0]: https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic... > But even then: if you go 100 km between charging and the battery only lasts half of it, that's still half your fossil fuel that's replaced with a municipal electric grid that is inherently more efficient even when also purely fossil fuelled, and also is being rapidly greened. If you divide the all-electric range with battery capacity, the Prius Prism consumes 191 Wh per km in all electric mode, while a Hyundai Ioniq 6 consumes 133 Wh per km - you are paying for the complex hybrid drive-train in electric efficiency. In ICE mode, the same car consumes around 3.5 L per 100 km mixed driving, while fully petrol VW up! uses 2.9 L per 100 km mixed driving - not bad for a gasoline vehicle, but also not amazing. Data from their respective Wikipedia articles. If you rarely ever need the gasoline engine, sure - then you're just driving a somewhat inefficient BEV with a miniscule battery requiring recharging at least once a day. If the gasoline engine comes on, then you're just driving a gasoline vehicle from that point on with good - but far from the best - fuel efficiency. Either way, you might still be better off with a small BEV with a tiny battery, like a used Renault Zoe, VW e-UP! or the upcoming VW ID.1. Better efficiency and longer battery-range so you don't have to recharge once or twice every day, and without being the worst of both worlds when they are serviced like is the case for a hybrid.

Misleading article title. >In the end, plugins represented 18% share of the overall auto market (with a 13% BEV share alone). Regardless, this is a happy trend!

sebzim4500 3y ago

What is misleading? I'm struggling to understand how your quote contradicts the headline.

arghwhat 3y ago
The headline includes plugin hybrids, which is an ICE vehicle unless driven purely from battery. Grouping then with BEVs can be misleading depending on what the data is used for.
- ben_w 3y ago
  Mm, indeed. Given the usual intention of "how green are we?", I would suggest counting them as 80% of a "real" EV, for the same reason that I give when the discussion turns to putting PV cells physically on a car[0]: most driving is short trips where this is fine, and the longer trips, while they absolutely exist, are less common. [0] though with different underlying causes that means this is coincidentally 80% and they may diverge
  - rssoconnor 3y ago
    For the record I use about 1.5 L/100km in my Prius Prime. I used to get about 5 L/100km on my Prius. For my Corolla before that, I'd guess it was about 8 L/100km. That said, it is clear to me that the fuel economy one will get with the Prius Prime will depend heavily on the relative frequency of the various trips one takes.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      In comparison, a modern eco VW UP! is around 2.8L/100km in mixed driving, so 1.5 is about a 2x improvement over a good ICE. My old diesel polo does around 4L/100km, so 2.5x for that one. Not bad, definitely a hell of a lot better than the early Prius, but definitely nowhere near BEV efficiencies. I feel like a small-battery BEV is a better proposition for many, especially as pure BEVs have significantly better pure-electric drive-train efficiency than plugins, and less maintenance.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    It really depends on the instance, as plug-in hybrids have traditionally had rather anemic pure-electric ranges. If it can do, say, ~75km pure electric with reasonable climate comforts, then I imagine it should be able to handle a majority of commutes with just home charging and is for all practical purposes a BEV in daily operation. It gets muddy below that though, requiring either quite limited total daily driving or multiple charge rounds every day...
    - ben_w 3y ago
      While you may use more than 75 km per day (my brother would've at his last place), most people commute between two places in a single city, so they don't need so much — the averages I've heard vary from 12 to 20 miles per day, so 20-32 km total even assuming no charging at work (which I hope would be encouraged by most local governments). But even then: if you go 100 km between charging and the battery only lasts half of it, that's still half your fossil fuel that's replaced with a municipal electric grid that is inherently more efficient even when also purely fossil fuelled, and also is being rapidly greened.
      - arghwhat 3y ago
        75 km was to account for two locations within the single city or metropolitan area, with some buffer: 25-30 km each way, leaving 15-25 km as buffer for heating/cooling cabin and battery depending on climate as well as detours like groceries and picking up children. A significant percentage of your range goes out the window when the battery goes cold or you need to heat or cool the cabin. Random online sources[0] seem to suggest that the average daily US commute is 41 miles, or 65 km. The median or geometric average might have been better, but that suggests that the "average US citizen" would require 2 charges per day with less than 75 km of battery range. If you go much shorter than this - say, 20km roundtrip - then you are also getting into bicycle commuting territory, at least outside the US where bikes are given priority in traffic. [0]: https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic... > But even then: if you go 100 km between charging and the battery only lasts half of it, that's still half your fossil fuel that's replaced with a municipal electric grid that is inherently more efficient even when also purely fossil fuelled, and also is being rapidly greened. If you divide the all-electric range with battery capacity, the Prius Prism consumes 191 Wh per km in all electric mode, while a Hyundai Ioniq 6 consumes 133 Wh per km - you are paying for the complex hybrid drive-train in electric efficiency. In ICE mode, the same car consumes around 3.5 L per 100 km mixed driving, while fully petrol VW up! uses 2.9 L per 100 km mixed driving - not bad for a gasoline vehicle, but also not amazing. Data from their respective Wikipedia articles. If you rarely ever need the gasoline engine, sure - then you're just driving a somewhat inefficient BEV with a miniscule battery requiring recharging at least once a day. If the gasoline engine comes on, then you're just driving a gasoline vehicle from that point on with good - but far from the best - fuel efficiency. Either way, you might still be better off with a small BEV with a tiny battery, like a used Renault Zoe, VW e-UP! or the upcoming VW ID.1. Better efficiency and longer battery-range so you don't have to recharge once or twice every day, and without being the worst of both worlds when they are serviced like is the case for a hybrid.