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I would rather sink in an ocean of kubernetes YAML documents than having to deal with Docker swarm issues ever again. Thankfully Docker swarm is kinda dead so i

I would rather sink in an ocean of kubernetes YAML documents than having to deal with Docker swarm issues ever again. Thankfully Docker swarm is kinda dead so it’s unlikely to be relevant again. Kubernetes won.

michens 3y ago
Can you elaborate on its issues? I've never used it on production myself, but it looks like a simplified k8n, which is something I feel a lot of people desire
- da768 3y ago
  Last used it years ago, networking would just die randomly, requiring container restarts when using multiple nodes
  - eropple 3y ago
    I have heard (though haven't tried) that V2 of Compose/Swarm is significantly better.
  - drdaeman 3y ago
    Anything can and will break. Symptomatically similar thing happened to me with K8s with (IIRC) Calico. And I’ve had issues with Swarm too, although of a different kind (it quietly refused to run a data channel for me over an IPv6-only network, while control channel worked just fine). It was all quite a while (3-4 years) ago, so I don’t remember much details, except that Swarm was then not exactly capable of working in IPv6-only environments. It was significantly easier to navigate Docker’s codebase than Kubernetes’. (Ultimately, my solution was that I understood that I didn’t need any kind of orchestration there, just HA/failover. But that’s another story.)
- raphinou 3y ago
  I've been very happy with until now, though i must admit i'm using one node swarms. But i'd rather use that (1) than sticking together a custom solution using docker compose as i see it mentioned sometimes. (1) https://dockerswarm.rocks/traefik/ https://dockerswarm.rocks/traefik/
- speedgoose 3y ago
  I haven’t used it for many years but in short it just didn’t work reliably. I mostly encountered network iptables issues from memory.
- nunez 3y ago
  Infinite issues with overlay networking once you scale past 30 nodes in a swarm. Weave aside, network drivers for anything not CNI are basically deprecated/dead.
talent_deprived 3y ago
I like what kube achieves, I don't like the power and memory hungry requirements of it, it seems ill optimized. A cluster with no pods uses 5%-15% CPU, that's a lot of electricity being used for nothing. It's really odd since Google claims to have green datacenters.
- philipov 3y ago
  Does Google use carbon swaps to conceal their emissions? Maybe that's how they reconcile the difference. A quick search turned up this: https://www.greencentury.com/google-parent-alphabet-pledges-greater-transparency-on-use-of-carbon-offsets-after-green-century-shareholder-proposal-2/ https://www.greencentury.com/google-parent-alphabet-pledges-... Looks like a possible case of greenwashing to me.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    Google doesn’t use kubernetes to run anything production. They use Borg
  - tedivm 3y ago
    I got into an argument with someone at google who said they don't use carbon swaps and ended up pulling up a shareholder report that said they did. Google is real big on the greenwashing.
- nixgeek 3y ago
  Google doesn’t run on Kubernetee.
- teraflop 3y ago
  I'm curious, are you seeing that on cloud instances, or what? My experience with bare-metal Kubernetes hasn't been that bad. On my home cluster with very underpowered J4105 CPUs, I get about 5% CPU usage on the master node at idle, and 2% on workers.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
tedivm 3y ago
I've actually been using docker swarm for an odroid cluster that runs a lot of services in my house. I really like it- it's extremely low overhead and the network mesh works way better than I was expecting considering I put no effort into configuring it. That said this is a three node cluster running a handful of containers, with services accessed by my wife and I. So not exactly a large scale production experience.
- SteveNuts 3y ago
  As someone whose wife will immediately call me if the important services in our household (Plex, pihole, home assistant), I think those definitely count as production services!
wg0 3y ago
Kubernetes won because of its composability. The API is the killer feature. The notion of objects, labels, pretty much an object oriented, declarative interface. You'd have to do a lots of custom morphing if you want that kind of interface over docker swarm. For smaller setups, simplicity of docker swarm might be useful but I am curious to know from people who are running clusters of 25 to 50 nodes.

michens 3y ago

Can you elaborate on its issues? I've never used it on production myself, but it looks like a simplified k8n, which is something I feel a lot of people desire

da768 3y ago
Last used it years ago, networking would just die randomly, requiring container restarts when using multiple nodes
- eropple 3y ago
  I have heard (though haven't tried) that V2 of Compose/Swarm is significantly better.
- drdaeman 3y ago
  Anything can and will break. Symptomatically similar thing happened to me with K8s with (IIRC) Calico. And I’ve had issues with Swarm too, although of a different kind (it quietly refused to run a data channel for me over an IPv6-only network, while control channel worked just fine). It was all quite a while (3-4 years) ago, so I don’t remember much details, except that Swarm was then not exactly capable of working in IPv6-only environments. It was significantly easier to navigate Docker’s codebase than Kubernetes’. (Ultimately, my solution was that I understood that I didn’t need any kind of orchestration there, just HA/failover. But that’s another story.)
raphinou 3y ago
I've been very happy with until now, though i must admit i'm using one node swarms. But i'd rather use that (1) than sticking together a custom solution using docker compose as i see it mentioned sometimes. (1) https://dockerswarm.rocks/traefik/ https://dockerswarm.rocks/traefik/
speedgoose 3y ago
I haven’t used it for many years but in short it just didn’t work reliably. I mostly encountered network iptables issues from memory.
nunez 3y ago
Infinite issues with overlay networking once you scale past 30 nodes in a swarm. Weave aside, network drivers for anything not CNI are basically deprecated/dead.

talent_deprived 3y ago

I like what kube achieves, I don't like the power and memory hungry requirements of it, it seems ill optimized. A cluster with no pods uses 5%-15% CPU, that's a lot of electricity being used for nothing. It's really odd since Google claims to have green datacenters.

philipov 3y ago
Does Google use carbon swaps to conceal their emissions? Maybe that's how they reconcile the difference. A quick search turned up this: https://www.greencentury.com/google-parent-alphabet-pledges-greater-transparency-on-use-of-carbon-offsets-after-green-century-shareholder-proposal-2/ https://www.greencentury.com/google-parent-alphabet-pledges-... Looks like a possible case of greenwashing to me.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  Google doesn’t use kubernetes to run anything production. They use Borg
- tedivm 3y ago
  I got into an argument with someone at google who said they don't use carbon swaps and ended up pulling up a shareholder report that said they did. Google is real big on the greenwashing.
nixgeek 3y ago
Google doesn’t run on Kubernetee.
teraflop 3y ago
I'm curious, are you seeing that on cloud instances, or what? My experience with bare-metal Kubernetes hasn't been that bad. On my home cluster with very underpowered J4105 CPUs, I get about 5% CPU usage on the master node at idle, and 2% on workers.
- dilyevsky 3y ago

tedivm 3y ago

I've actually been using docker swarm for an odroid cluster that runs a lot of services in my house. I really like it- it's extremely low overhead and the network mesh works way better than I was expecting considering I put no effort into configuring it. That said this is a three node cluster running a handful of containers, with services accessed by my wife and I. So not exactly a large scale production experience.

SteveNuts 3y ago
As someone whose wife will immediately call me if the important services in our household (Plex, pihole, home assistant), I think those definitely count as production services!

wg0 3y ago

Kubernetes won because of its composability. The API is the killer feature. The notion of objects, labels, pretty much an object oriented, declarative interface. You'd have to do a lots of custom morphing if you want that kind of interface over docker swarm. For smaller setups, simplicity of docker swarm might be useful but I am curious to know from people who are running clusters of 25 to 50 nodes.