5 ms·

And she took home documents from several of those patients, which she'd have no ordinary reason to have fished out of the trash.

frou_dh 3y ago
And the little old thing that she wrote "I killed them on purpose" on a post-it-note at her house.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 3y ago
  Ah jinx!
- kitd 3y ago
  Those notes had little effect in her conviction apparently, according to a criminal psychiatrist on BBC radio. It is behaviour typical of someone suffering depression, for which she was having treatment at the time.
  - adammarples 3y ago
    Writing "I killed them on purpose" is not typical behaviour of depressed people.
    - kitd 3y ago
      I'm going by the testimony of a psychiatrist who had been following the trial. Depression can apparently push people into a mental world where everything is at rock bottom and what gets written is just an expression of that.
    - Intralexical 3y ago
      Most depressed people don't have strings of deaths following them wherever they go. It is not unexpected of depressed people to blame themselves for bad things that happen around them, I think. …For multiple reasons, (1.) because you really do hate yourself that much, and might view those tragic events as also personal failures, and (2.) because for the suicidally depressed, it can be a way to manufacture a reason to believe why you deserve to be hated or physically injured. IIRC the insulin levels or something were rather suspicious, but in general I sorta can't and shouldn't comment on the validity of rest of the case as a bystander. But when I read about that note in particular, my read on it was that somebody who actually did kill them versus somebody who just feels really bad about the situation and wants to vent in their own private space would write down the exact same thing in the exact same way with equivalent plausibility. She was a nurse, and babies died in her care; it is entirely plausible that, especially if she was already depressed, she would view that as being her fault and find some way to internalize the tragedy even if she didn't actually do anything to cause it. And, IIRC, Letby did basically say that that was what she meant by the note— So, in sum, an innocent person who had been blaming themselves and a murderer trying to lie their way out of justice IMO would have written down the exact same thing with equal plausibility, and then tried to explain it the exact same way, which means that IMO that datapoint is basically useless for determining her guilt. There was other evidence presented too, of course. I'm glad to hear that the conviction didn't rest on just that note, because given the situation, we don't actually know in isolation why she wrote that or what she meant by it— Most murderers try to avoid leaving confessions lying around to be used as evidence too.
  - atlantic 3y ago
    Yes, typically, when people are depressed, they write things like "I ate my neighbours for breakfast" or "I massacred everyone in the mall". I get that too. My desk is covered with those notes.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    It's important to keep in mind that the post-it note [1] with the "confession" was not meant as a confession, for example it wasn't a signed confession and it wasn't accepted by Lucy Letby as a confession. The prosecution pointed out to the note as a confession. I have no idea how much that affected the jury but it's just as important to remember that false confessions are a thing, and a common thing at that [2], and they have led to many false convictions. The wikipedia article I cite has a _very_ long list from many places in the world. At the end of the day, innocent people can confess and guilty people can maintain their innocence. A confession is no more reason to accept guilt than protestations of innocence are reason to assume innocence. Again, I don't know how much the jury were influenced by the note, but, anecdotally, the press has certainly held it up as some sort of evidence, and I've seen people on the internet take it as such, also. See for example a parent comment. _____________ [1] For example, here: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lucy-letbys-written-note-released-25256352 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lucy-let... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession
ad404b8a372f2b9 3y ago
And she had post-it notes at home where she had written "I killed them on purpose."...
littlestymaar 3y ago
Like with the unauthorized interaction with the babies[1], this is only relevant to the case if (1) it's not a common behavior among nurses in her unit and (2) she did that specifically to the victims, and not with many of her patients. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37810382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37810382

frou_dh 3y ago

And the little old thing that she wrote "I killed them on purpose" on a post-it-note at her house.

ad404b8a372f2b9 3y ago
Ah jinx!
kitd 3y ago
Those notes had little effect in her conviction apparently, according to a criminal psychiatrist on BBC radio. It is behaviour typical of someone suffering depression, for which she was having treatment at the time.
- adammarples 3y ago
  Writing "I killed them on purpose" is not typical behaviour of depressed people.
  - kitd 3y ago
    I'm going by the testimony of a psychiatrist who had been following the trial. Depression can apparently push people into a mental world where everything is at rock bottom and what gets written is just an expression of that.
  - Intralexical 3y ago
    Most depressed people don't have strings of deaths following them wherever they go. It is not unexpected of depressed people to blame themselves for bad things that happen around them, I think. …For multiple reasons, (1.) because you really do hate yourself that much, and might view those tragic events as also personal failures, and (2.) because for the suicidally depressed, it can be a way to manufacture a reason to believe why you deserve to be hated or physically injured. IIRC the insulin levels or something were rather suspicious, but in general I sorta can't and shouldn't comment on the validity of rest of the case as a bystander. But when I read about that note in particular, my read on it was that somebody who actually did kill them versus somebody who just feels really bad about the situation and wants to vent in their own private space would write down the exact same thing in the exact same way with equivalent plausibility. She was a nurse, and babies died in her care; it is entirely plausible that, especially if she was already depressed, she would view that as being her fault and find some way to internalize the tragedy even if she didn't actually do anything to cause it. And, IIRC, Letby did basically say that that was what she meant by the note— So, in sum, an innocent person who had been blaming themselves and a murderer trying to lie their way out of justice IMO would have written down the exact same thing with equal plausibility, and then tried to explain it the exact same way, which means that IMO that datapoint is basically useless for determining her guilt. There was other evidence presented too, of course. I'm glad to hear that the conviction didn't rest on just that note, because given the situation, we don't actually know in isolation why she wrote that or what she meant by it— Most murderers try to avoid leaving confessions lying around to be used as evidence too.
- atlantic 3y ago
  Yes, typically, when people are depressed, they write things like "I ate my neighbours for breakfast" or "I massacred everyone in the mall". I get that too. My desk is covered with those notes.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  It's important to keep in mind that the post-it note [1] with the "confession" was not meant as a confession, for example it wasn't a signed confession and it wasn't accepted by Lucy Letby as a confession. The prosecution pointed out to the note as a confession. I have no idea how much that affected the jury but it's just as important to remember that false confessions are a thing, and a common thing at that [2], and they have led to many false convictions. The wikipedia article I cite has a _very_ long list from many places in the world. At the end of the day, innocent people can confess and guilty people can maintain their innocence. A confession is no more reason to accept guilt than protestations of innocence are reason to assume innocence. Again, I don't know how much the jury were influenced by the note, but, anecdotally, the press has certainly held it up as some sort of evidence, and I've seen people on the internet take it as such, also. See for example a parent comment. _____________ [1] For example, here: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lucy-letbys-written-note-released-25256352 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lucy-let... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession

ad404b8a372f2b9 3y ago

And she had post-it notes at home where she had written "I killed them on purpose."...

littlestymaar 3y ago

Like with the unauthorized interaction with the babies[1], this is only relevant to the case if (1) it's not a common behavior among nurses in her unit and (2) she did that specifically to the victims, and not with many of her patients. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37810382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37810382