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Crypto could provide a competitive edge to certain features in Patreon (and Bandcamp). - Instead of 4-7% payment processing fees, it can be effectively zero[1]

• pjc50 3y ago
  The real feature of centralized services is anti-fraud. Conversely, the real service of crypto is easy to commit, hard to trace, irreversible fraud. (also, you've missed all the points in the original article which crypto does not provide!)
  • mattdesl 3y ago
    I did address both the OP's 1) pseudonym (anonymity) and 2) by-works, the other two points (patronage and audience relationship + API) are both viable and already very much present in crypto art communities. The real feature of crypto is decentralization, which does not need to mean fraud—in the same way that end-to-end encryption does not only facilitate criminal behaviour.
    • CRM_CHILD_IDENT 3y ago
      Cryptocoins - I guess you mean that by misusing the term "crypto" - are not "decentralized" just because there is one p2p feature implemented. On the opposite, you have ultra-centralized governance and zero democracy. You should erase the idea from your head that cryptocoins bring anything valuable to the payment world.
      • mattdesl 3y ago
        How is Ethereum (an open source network) ultra centralized and without democracy compared to PayPal or VISA which currently account for a large portion of Patreon payments?
        • CRM_CHILD_IDENT 3y ago
          Yes, it is the same, you are right. That´s the point - no inch more "power to the poeple" via cryptocoins.
          • mattdesl 3y ago
            Except these are not at all the same, and most users cannot fork or participate in PayPal/VISA protocols.
            • AlexandrB 3y ago
              What difference does it make if they can fork or participate? The important decisions are made by Vitalik and a small group of insiders. Do users get any input on anything actually important like the Ethereum fork that bailed out the DAO investors?
              • mattdesl 3y ago
                Protocol and client development spans hundreds of contributors and independent researchers. The discussions and development is public; just look at the EIPs, or even submit one yourself. Users (non-devs) have agency through the software they choose to run. If mainnet was seriously affected by some attack, users could choose to migrate to a healthier network run by honest nodes. This agency happens with every hard fork: the DAO, but also the PoS merge.
• braza 3y ago
  I think this is a great idea, but at least for Crypto the issue is the ergonomics because it needs to be (1) convenient for the creator, (2) convenient for the payer, (3) offer liquidity/withdrawn venues for both parties. All of this discarding the extra friction to make it operational (QR codes with the codes would help here, but I am not sure).
• kodra 3y ago
  Patreon creators actively voted against crypto.
  • xcdzvyn 3y ago
    Of course, and there was great uproar when Discord implemented linking Ethereum wallet addresses to your account - not because it's harmful, or even because it's a bad idea, but because of this pervasive concept in some internet communities that cryptocurrency is bad simply because it is.
    • AlexandrB 3y ago
      This is silly. There is a several hour long YouTube video outlining many of the reasons why crypto is bad. There are articles and books and analyses galore. Plenty of ink has been spilled regarding why crypto is bad. What I haven't seen is any clear headed analysis of why crypto is good that doesn't fall back on "but fiat is bad because government" or on gold bug notions of "it has value because it's scarce".
• BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Last I checked, NSFW art wasn't currently acceptable, payment processors would refuse to deal with you... so how do the likes of Patreon and OnlyFans managed to get a pass ?
  • mattdesl 3y ago
    NSFW art is not illegal; VISA won't block you if you fund an artist who is drawing or photographing nudes, and Patreon's current policy is that this form of content is acceptable.[1] [1] https://www.patreon.com/en-GB/policy/community-guidelines https://www.patreon.com/en-GB/policy/community-guidelines
    • BlueTemplar 3y ago
      AFAIK the crux of the matter is exactly in how VISA and the like are judge, jury and executioner on these matters : if they don't think what you are doing is acceptable, being legal won't change anything about that. And as far as I remember, Patreon also had similar issues with terminating accounts of people that they (not judges !) have decided to have violated (IIRC) hate speech laws ? (This wouldn't be an issue if antitrust was working properly and Patreon hadn't become so big that alternatives aren't even on people's radars (GP's ignorance about Tipeee being an example), but here we are...)
  • game_the0ry 3y ago
    There was a HN post while back that speculated that they might be using "cascading" payments where OnlyFans will load balance across payment processors to keep the charge back rates low.
  • dotnet00 3y ago
    They get a pass by having the right contacts at the payment processors. Unfortunately we still haven't acknowledged that online payment processors are effectively a utility nowadays, so what the processors restrict and how they enforce it is completely arbitrary, and thus the winners and losers they choose are also very arbitrary.
• smeej 3y ago
  Even granting that those things do apply, there's another major hurdle for any platform that would try to do this with crypto: You can't autobill. Every time you want a payment, you need a signature from the sending wallet. The closest you can get is a smart contract where someone pre-loads a certain amount of money and it trickles out as the months/works roll out, but it will eventually deplete. Then what? Subscription over? Start the nagging emails? It's not "set and forget" like a credit card where you settle the debt after the creator receives their payment.
  • mattdesl 3y ago
    Agreed, it is limited to active participation. Although this might not be such an issue; a lot of creator payment platforms (Bandcamp, Ko-fi, Kickstarter) depend on active payments, and Patreon’s recent announcements seem to suggest they will lean more heavily on this.
  • timbit42 3y ago
    You seem to mean Bitcoin when you say crypto. Other cryptocurrencies such as Ethereum can do autobill.
    • smeej 3y ago
      Only of a pre-funded wallet. It's still different from a credit card. With a credit card, someone else fronts the money and bills me later. Any system that tried to do this on crypto would just be a glorified way of "being a credit card that accepted ETH (or whatever else) for payment."
      • mattdesl 3y ago
        To be fair, there are many countries outside of North America that exhibit preference for debit cards, and may even have very low credit card ownership rates. I don't pay with a credit card for my Patreon subscriptions, for example.
• jowea 3y ago
  > - Instead of 4-7% payment processing fees, it can be effectively zero[1] There are disadvantages to using Layer 2 of a blockchain, and you are ignoring the costs of on-boarding and off-boarding from cryptocurrency. > - Users of the platform could be given more control such as forking the OSS protocol if the core devs go off the rails or try to extract more than what users feel it’s worth. This is especially interesting given the recent polarizing changes to Patreon and Bandcamp’s business structures. In this case you're speaking of doing Patreon on the blockchain, not merely using cryptocurrency transactions? How would that work and how wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to do with a public, possibly federated, server running a FOSS Patreon software? > - Settlement times can be measured in minutes or hours rather than days, weeks, or months. Are settlement times going down with FedNow? And even CC transactions take seconds, do the content creators care that much about getting the money immediately and isn't that a greater fraud risk? > - Anonymity and local-first data privacy could be achieved, at least theoretically. Practically, very few L2s have yet to reach complete privacy using zero knowledge proofs and related cryptography. I admit to not being familiar with the situation but aren't all transactions public on the blockchain? How that can be anonymous unless you're using something like Monero? And I'm not sure what local-first data there is, you meaning having the paywalled content downloaded to your device if you subscribe? > - Mitigating centralizing factors such as Patreon’s control over what is a morally acceptable revenue stream. Content like NSFW art might be currently acceptable, but this could change on a dime if the company decides to change its values. What about illegally acceptable revenue streams? How would such a platform stop being banned due to illegal content?
  • mattdesl 3y ago
    > There are disadvantages to using Layer 2 of a blockchain, and you are ignoring the costs of on-boarding and off-boarding from cryptocurrency. Yes, it's not a panacea, but has the potential to be far lower than the current status quo. > In this case you're speaking of doing Patreon on the blockchain, not merely using cryptocurrency transactions? How would that work and how wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to do with a public, possibly federated, server running a FOSS Patreon software? It can be both; using smart contracts to facilitate payments and identity, and some form of federated or decentralized protocol for communication and discovery (e.g. Farcaster). > Are settlement times going down with FedNow? And even CC transactions take seconds, do the content creators care that much about getting the money immediately and isn't that a greater fraud risk? Not everybody lives in the USA, and yes creators would likely appreciate lowering payout schedules from days to hours. > I admit to not being familiar with the situation but aren't all transactions public on the blockchain? Yes, like Monero but with smart contracts and verifiable computation via ZK-SNARKs. It is possible, but in its infancy: see Aztec and Aleo. > What about illegally acceptable revenue streams? How would such a platform stop being banned due to illegal content? The primary hosts can choose not to serve the illegal content; it would redirect the behaviour to alternative platforms. Similar to a popular Mastodon server choosing not to allow NSFW, but other servers might allow NSFW.
• fortran77 3y ago
  I use Patreon. I wouldn't use crypto to pay a content creator. (In fact, I've never used crypto other than to try to get the software for Bitcoin running once in the early days of it.) A person who is completely non-technical would be even less likely to use Crypto than me.
• throwaway98797 3y ago
  if you stay in crypto fees are small the port to fiat is the problem someone somewhere will need to change USDC / USDT (eek) to fiat either all visitors of the platform or the platform forms those relationships this is the weakness of crypto enthusiasts’ arguments. they live in the world where crypto won and you can buy goods within their ecosystem. this is simply not true… yet? i’m actually a fan of crypto, but these naive or bond header arguments are not useful to convince anyone. it’s like saying you can lose weight eating mcdonald’s, you can but will most?
  • mattdesl 3y ago
    CEX fees tend to be very low, much lower than payment processor fees that most Patreon users are paying right now. Coinbase and Kraken have no USDC withdrawal fees with ACH in the US, and nominal bank fees in many other countries. There is no fee exchanging USDC to USD on Coinbase, and Kraken’s trading fees are something like 0.26%.
    • throwaway98797 3y ago
      so many of my frens (note the spelling) have had their coinbase accounts frozen or investigated when used as a pass through i’ve personally never had a problem with them or circle but my transaction volume is low. the normie can’t and won’t figure out the metamask to coinbase to fait part. it’s painful for those deep in crypto let alone the average patron supporter stop painting a rosy picture of shitty crypto ux
      • mattdesl 3y ago
        Nobody is claiming that crypto UX is currently superior to Patreon or Stripe.