4 ms·

USA's Most Successful Union Bankrupted

12 points by barry-cotter 3y ago

alexnewman 3y ago
I wonder if the unions of america’s history with organized crime is to blame for its inability to be functional like german unions.
- Certhas 3y ago
  I think it's also related to the fact that they operate in an incredibly hostile environment. A broad general union can not thrive, so the only ones that remain are those special interest unions that wield enormous power to extract rents by representing specialists/niches. In Germany you also have democratic elements in all firms above a certain size (workers councils, Betriebsrat). The whole cultural and legal framework is just different. Also compared to France for example.
  - alexnewman 3y ago
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Can you speak more to the incredibly hostile environment? What do you mean by this?
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  inability to be functional like german unions The difference starts at the top --- in most german companies management doesn't typically get 40 percent pay raises while workers get 2 percent. Workers would rightfully consider this to be a crime against them. So maybe the real reason American unions can't function like german unions is because American management acts like organized crime.
Garvi 3y ago
> I am reminded of the day Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for their illegal strike. I am reminded of the day this union was formed after two striking workers were killed by the police. Next time around it's going to take a lot more to get people to unionize and protect each other. Not with social media around telling everyone how everyone agrees what a bad idea it is. It is ironic the spellchecker is telling me "unionize" is not a real word. Or is it?
- stareatgoats 3y ago
  That spell checker (Apple? because I can't reproduce on Windows) needs to check its spelling. "Unionize" is certainly a word, used 7 times in the Wikipedia article about unionizing (for example). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionization
  - Garvi 3y ago
    It's reproducible in Manjaro + Brave browser, I just checked.
Simulacra 3y ago
The one thing that I've never been able to wrap my head around about unions is their ability to strike, and not be fired. Forming a union, advocating for collective bargaining, those things are good, but being able to put a gun to a corporations head, and say, do this or we are destroying your company, is just wrong. If a person wants to strike, fine, but the company should be able to hire someone else. We as citizens are not forced to work for particular companies, those companies should not be forced to work with us.
- david38 3y ago
  Without striking they have almost zero power. It’s the same as a company that can’t fire anyone.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  What you're really saying is that employers should be allowed to form a large powerful collective organization but employees shouldn't. In other words, wage slavery should be enshrined as a corporate right --- essentially a lord and peasants system being advocated by the peasants.
  - jdasdf 3y ago
    > What you're really saying is that employers should be allowed to form a large powerful collective organization but employees shouldn't. That's not what he said, but you'll ignore it anyway. If employees want to form a union, they are welcome to do so. If employers want to fire everyone that is in a union, they too should be welcome to do so.
    - nullindividual 3y ago
      If the employer can fire the lot of them, then we are back to square one with the employer holding all of the bargaining power, thus no need for a union.
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      If employers want to fire everyone that is in a union, they too should be welcome to do so. Just a variation on a theme. Corporations should have the power to destroy unions but unions should not have the power to destroy corporations. When employees do good, executives get 40 percent raises, employees get 2 percent. Anything that doesn't help make the rich and the powerful even more so is unacceptable ... because that's how fairness works in a lords and peasants system.

12 points by barry-cotter 3y ago

I wonder if the unions of america’s history with organized crime is to blame for its inability to be functional like german unions.

Certhas 3y ago
I think it's also related to the fact that they operate in an incredibly hostile environment. A broad general union can not thrive, so the only ones that remain are those special interest unions that wield enormous power to extract rents by representing specialists/niches. In Germany you also have democratic elements in all firms above a certain size (workers councils, Betriebsrat). The whole cultural and legal framework is just different. Also compared to France for example.
- alexnewman 3y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Can you speak more to the incredibly hostile environment? What do you mean by this?
jqpabc123 3y ago
inability to be functional like german unions The difference starts at the top --- in most german companies management doesn't typically get 40 percent pay raises while workers get 2 percent. Workers would rightfully consider this to be a crime against them. So maybe the real reason American unions can't function like german unions is because American management acts like organized crime.

Garvi 3y ago

> I am reminded of the day Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for their illegal strike. I am reminded of the day this union was formed after two striking workers were killed by the police. Next time around it's going to take a lot more to get people to unionize and protect each other. Not with social media around telling everyone how everyone agrees what a bad idea it is. It is ironic the spellchecker is telling me "unionize" is not a real word. Or is it?

stareatgoats 3y ago
That spell checker (Apple? because I can't reproduce on Windows) needs to check its spelling. "Unionize" is certainly a word, used 7 times in the Wikipedia article about unionizing (for example). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionization
- Garvi 3y ago
  It's reproducible in Manjaro + Brave browser, I just checked.

Simulacra 3y ago

The one thing that I've never been able to wrap my head around about unions is their ability to strike, and not be fired. Forming a union, advocating for collective bargaining, those things are good, but being able to put a gun to a corporations head, and say, do this or we are destroying your company, is just wrong. If a person wants to strike, fine, but the company should be able to hire someone else. We as citizens are not forced to work for particular companies, those companies should not be forced to work with us.

david38 3y ago
Without striking they have almost zero power. It’s the same as a company that can’t fire anyone.
jqpabc123 3y ago
What you're really saying is that employers should be allowed to form a large powerful collective organization but employees shouldn't. In other words, wage slavery should be enshrined as a corporate right --- essentially a lord and peasants system being advocated by the peasants.
- jdasdf 3y ago
  > What you're really saying is that employers should be allowed to form a large powerful collective organization but employees shouldn't. That's not what he said, but you'll ignore it anyway. If employees want to form a union, they are welcome to do so. If employers want to fire everyone that is in a union, they too should be welcome to do so.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    If the employer can fire the lot of them, then we are back to square one with the employer holding all of the bargaining power, thus no need for a union.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    If employers want to fire everyone that is in a union, they too should be welcome to do so. Just a variation on a theme. Corporations should have the power to destroy unions but unions should not have the power to destroy corporations. When employees do good, executives get 40 percent raises, employees get 2 percent. Anything that doesn't help make the rich and the powerful even more so is unacceptable ... because that's how fairness works in a lords and peasants system.