5 ms·

e.g. Kardashian speak

kibibu 3y ago
Lots and lots of men speak almost exclusively in vocal fry, why is it so strongly associated with the Kardashians? Go listen to Jeremy Irons or Alan Rickman.
- searealist 3y ago
  Male vocal fry is much less common and mostly exclusive to older generations. I wouldn't say either of your examples are vocal fry.
  - kibibu 3y ago
    They drop into vocal fry at the end of most sentences though.
- elondaits 3y ago
  This video tries to explain the issue, with examples: https://youtu.be/Q0yL2GezneU?si=YfHHJXtVYWvqgFlD https://youtu.be/Q0yL2GezneU?si=YfHHJXtVYWvqgFlD
  - Biologist123 3y ago
    This was a brilliant video. Great story-telling, livened up with a mash-up approach. For Brits there is a major plot twist at about 12”30. Thanks for posting. Made my morning.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KPGv2 3y ago
  Honestly it's probably misogyny. There are some women we are supposed to hate who use it, so therefore it's bad to use it.
  - LanceH 3y ago
    It sounds like people aren't putting into the effort to speak. It's the vocal version of the intentional bored look. Some people have it at full volume and speed and that's just their voice. But a lot of people (and fewer men) it's not their real voice, but an affectation. We get to have opinions on people's affectations still, right?
    - tsimionescu 3y ago
      The point is that vocal fry, even when it is an affectation and not just your normal speech, used to be seen as a marker of eloquence and high class. British actors, male ones, used vocal fry extensively. Sean Connery's James Bond uses it in the famous "Bond. James Bond" introduction [0], for just one example. Or listen to William F Buckley, an American high class conservative (buffoon that presented as an intellectual) using it to sound prim and proper [1]. It is an objective fact that hating vocal fry is just a fad, and that loving it has been a fad for at least as long. You are free to dislike it, but you can't pretend it should be hated on objective grounds, and it definitely doesn't convey boredom or low effort. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b15-P12gIf0&t=1m20s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b15-P12gIf0&t=1m20s [1] https://youtu.be/5Tek9h3a5wQ?t=43m39s https://youtu.be/5Tek9h3a5wQ?t=43m39s - in a debate where Buckley's arguing the "dignified" position that black people shouldn't receive more rights
      - LanceH 3y ago
        And compare it to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDfJn1kcQuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDfJn1kcQuU It's not even close to the same thing. It is what's going on in my link that's annoying as hell where Buckley and Connery might meet some technical definition of it, it is currently being put on to get across that "I'm bored with everything", which is annoying as hell when being spoken to.
        tsimionescu 3y ago
        You're asking me to compare an actual speech pattern of actual people with actors portraying a stereotype... Either way, it sounds like you hate a particular attitude which may be meant to convey a certain kind of ironic detachment, just like you would hate people rolling their eyes. You don't actually hate vocal fry, you just hate it when people use it to convey annoyance/boredom at you. Unfortunately, you may end up associating vocal fry in general, which is simply a speech pattern, to that particular use of it. And this is a problem, since lots of people use vocal fry as a normal part of their speech, no different from their automatic choice of pronouncing certain vowels as short or long.
KPGv2 3y ago
Vocal fry in the English language is historically associated with British men; it's curious to me that only when women adopted it did we start getting told to hate it.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Told to hate it? Please. I'm British and barely even know of the existence of Kardashian, much less how she speaks and what she's famous for. My first experience with vocal fry was a Finnish woman at my job who would use it constantly. This was several years ago and I had no idea what vocal fry was until recently. All I knew was I found the way she talked annoying. I liked her, but I did not like the way she talked. I think the most annoying thing is that it's clear it's being done on purpose for some reason. I know she can talk normally and I know I can talk like her, so why is she choosing to talk like that? Later there was a young guy at work who would drop into vocal fry a lot. I still didn't know what it was called but I still found it very annoying. I don't know why I don't find men like Bertrand Russell annoying. But all I know is nobody told me to hate anything. Even people that didn't like the woman I worked with never mentioned her voice.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    > I think the most annoying thing is that it's clear it's being done on purpose for some reason. I know she can talk normally and I know I can talk like her, so why is she choosing to talk like that? This is like complaining someone speaks with a certain accent. Sure, we can all change how we speak, but we speak and certain way and there is nothing wrong with it.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I merely said I find it annoying. Am I not allowed to reflect on what I find annoying? And yes, I do find certain accents annoying too, but my feeling is it's much harder to change one's accent than it is to not do vocal fry. I can't change my accent at will, but I can certainly do vocal fry.

Lots and lots of men speak almost exclusively in vocal fry, why is it so strongly associated with the Kardashians? Go listen to Jeremy Irons or Alan Rickman.

searealist 3y ago
Male vocal fry is much less common and mostly exclusive to older generations. I wouldn't say either of your examples are vocal fry.
- kibibu 3y ago
  They drop into vocal fry at the end of most sentences though.
elondaits 3y ago
This video tries to explain the issue, with examples: https://youtu.be/Q0yL2GezneU?si=YfHHJXtVYWvqgFlD https://youtu.be/Q0yL2GezneU?si=YfHHJXtVYWvqgFlD
- Biologist123 3y ago
  This was a brilliant video. Great story-telling, livened up with a mash-up approach. For Brits there is a major plot twist at about 12”30. Thanks for posting. Made my morning.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
KPGv2 3y ago
Honestly it's probably misogyny. There are some women we are supposed to hate who use it, so therefore it's bad to use it.
- LanceH 3y ago
  It sounds like people aren't putting into the effort to speak. It's the vocal version of the intentional bored look. Some people have it at full volume and speed and that's just their voice. But a lot of people (and fewer men) it's not their real voice, but an affectation. We get to have opinions on people's affectations still, right?
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    The point is that vocal fry, even when it is an affectation and not just your normal speech, used to be seen as a marker of eloquence and high class. British actors, male ones, used vocal fry extensively. Sean Connery's James Bond uses it in the famous "Bond. James Bond" introduction [0], for just one example. Or listen to William F Buckley, an American high class conservative (buffoon that presented as an intellectual) using it to sound prim and proper [1]. It is an objective fact that hating vocal fry is just a fad, and that loving it has been a fad for at least as long. You are free to dislike it, but you can't pretend it should be hated on objective grounds, and it definitely doesn't convey boredom or low effort. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b15-P12gIf0&t=1m20s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b15-P12gIf0&t=1m20s [1] https://youtu.be/5Tek9h3a5wQ?t=43m39s https://youtu.be/5Tek9h3a5wQ?t=43m39s - in a debate where Buckley's arguing the "dignified" position that black people shouldn't receive more rights
    - LanceH 3y ago
      And compare it to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDfJn1kcQuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDfJn1kcQuU It's not even close to the same thing. It is what's going on in my link that's annoying as hell where Buckley and Connery might meet some technical definition of it, it is currently being put on to get across that "I'm bored with everything", which is annoying as hell when being spoken to.
      - tsimionescu 3y ago
        You're asking me to compare an actual speech pattern of actual people with actors portraying a stereotype... Either way, it sounds like you hate a particular attitude which may be meant to convey a certain kind of ironic detachment, just like you would hate people rolling their eyes. You don't actually hate vocal fry, you just hate it when people use it to convey annoyance/boredom at you. Unfortunately, you may end up associating vocal fry in general, which is simply a speech pattern, to that particular use of it. And this is a problem, since lots of people use vocal fry as a normal part of their speech, no different from their automatic choice of pronouncing certain vowels as short or long.

KPGv2 3y ago

Vocal fry in the English language is historically associated with British men; it's curious to me that only when women adopted it did we start getting told to hate it.

globular-toast 3y ago
Told to hate it? Please. I'm British and barely even know of the existence of Kardashian, much less how she speaks and what she's famous for. My first experience with vocal fry was a Finnish woman at my job who would use it constantly. This was several years ago and I had no idea what vocal fry was until recently. All I knew was I found the way she talked annoying. I liked her, but I did not like the way she talked. I think the most annoying thing is that it's clear it's being done on purpose for some reason. I know she can talk normally and I know I can talk like her, so why is she choosing to talk like that? Later there was a young guy at work who would drop into vocal fry a lot. I still didn't know what it was called but I still found it very annoying. I don't know why I don't find men like Bertrand Russell annoying. But all I know is nobody told me to hate anything. Even people that didn't like the woman I worked with never mentioned her voice.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  > I think the most annoying thing is that it's clear it's being done on purpose for some reason. I know she can talk normally and I know I can talk like her, so why is she choosing to talk like that? This is like complaining someone speaks with a certain accent. Sure, we can all change how we speak, but we speak and certain way and there is nothing wrong with it.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I merely said I find it annoying. Am I not allowed to reflect on what I find annoying? And yes, I do find certain accents annoying too, but my feeling is it's much harder to change one's accent than it is to not do vocal fry. I can't change my accent at will, but I can certainly do vocal fry.