5 ms·

This is a painfully cynical take and beyond that I’m not sure what he’s trying to say. If it’s all crap, make it better. Do something, don’t just complain!

pdimitar 3y ago
How? Programmers don't have executive powers. You are very often told that this is not your job and you should be doing yours and leave the "experts" to theirs. Well, they are not experts. They are not even at the level of informed amateurs. But they have the power. What would you do? Sure, there are good companies and you can switch until you find one but let's recognize that statistically speaking this absolutely does not scale -- likely maximum 20% of the programmer workforce can do that. Maybe even only 10%. So again, what would you do?
- ludicity 3y ago
  Hello! I am the author, and you've saved me writing this out. The whole point is that you actually can't do something (and that's okay! I don't complain anymore either!). Burnout comes from believing what people are saying in corporate contexts without looking at what they're actually doing. I have come across so many government teams that say they want to start using version control... as if someone has been stopping them all these years! If they were serious, they'd just do it, so you're better off just looking at what they're doing than talking.
  - Loggias 3y ago
    [dead]
- smokefoot 3y ago
  In no particular order: 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions 2. Recruit some good people 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes—“there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…” or, “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better” There’s a trap here which is thinking it’s all crap so I may as well not try. It’s seductive but quite poinsonous to the organization and to the individual.
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    > 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions "Appreciate the feedback but we got this covered. Please resume your duties." > 2. Recruit some good people Did you miss the part where I said that my comment is from the point of view of a working programmer and not an executive? > 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes See my reply to your (1) above. > “there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…” "Don't be a condescending smart-ass please, you are not being a team player right now." > “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better” "They work well enough for us and we have no time budget for any modifications, and we are not convinced the said modifications are necessary at all". --- Your move.
    - jsocuwl 3y ago
      In a big enough organization, it is a complex system with unpredictable outcome. Pouring your soul into it may lead to unexpected consequences as opposed to simpler environments where your contribution actually make a relative difference.
      - pdimitar 3y ago
        True, that's why if I get to work for a big organization again I'll not even entertain the idea of trying to make a difference in improving processes. I'll just gulp the salary and never stick my nose out of my direct responsibilities as written in the contract. Making a difference can only happen in small tight-knit teams.
- lr4444lr 3y ago
  I'd leave, and prioritize a functional organization in my next job requirements.
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    I did that. A number of times, because it turns out people lie through their teeth that their organization is functional (during interviews). At one point people started asking why I have 3 contracts in a single year. Checkmate. What would you do?
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Make my own organization.
      - pdimitar 3y ago
        I have one, since 2008. Did not automatically make me financially independent so as not to care what my customers do, sadly.
    - lr4444lr 3y ago
      Either develop a better intuition for when people are lying and how ti read between the lines, or use friends, family, and associates you can trust who can do so.
      - pdimitar 3y ago
        Not once in my life did I ever use friends / family / associates to get a job but who knows, maybe I will do it once before I hit 45.
        lr4444lr 3y ago
        To be clear, I mean that when you apply for jobs, try to convey these trusted people in your life as much as you can about the role - conversations you've had, things you saw on a site visit, public info about the company, and ask whether they see any red flags, esp. as relate to your incompatibilities. Not that you use them as actual connections to find a job.
- patmcc 3y ago
  >>>How? Programmers don't have executive powers. The secret is - and this is wielded a million times a day in a million small ways - of course we do. Lots of people do in lots of jobs, whether intended or not. You just do the thing. You don't ask about doing the thing, you don't put in a project planning proposal, you don't beg your manager to devote 20% of your time to the thing, you just go and do it because you probably can. And as long as you do it, and it goes well, and nobody really notices until it's working, then it turns out you did have executive powers the whole time. Just do the thing. Ask forgiveness, not permission.
  - kukkeliskuu 3y ago
    Yes, this is important. Most people seem to self-sabotage their power. But many managers at least profess to look for "self-guided" people. I do this so regularly it is kind of a second nature to me. Sometimes is backfires, but if you really know what you are doing, mostly you will be fine. Might even get rewarded or promoted.
  - lmm 3y ago
    The best case, if you're lucky, no-one notices. More likely you're marked as a troublemaker and pushed out. You're literally better off slacking off for that 20%.
    - princeb 3y ago
      the best case is that you make the firm a lot of money, and you were successful justifying your contribution and your deserved commiseration. the least bad case is that you realize why nobody wanted to go ahead with your proposal in the first place but you caused no harm other than wasting several months of your own effort. the worst case obviously is that you caused a huge amount of problems for the firm and people are aware of where those problems came from.
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    Yeah, that's the only thing that ever worked. I still don't recommend it because people do notice, it's just that many don't care. But when they do, you're in trouble. But yeah, I've done it.
jahewson 3y ago
I once worked with a guy who had standards and a good handle on the disappointing gap between concept and reality and even he said to me “that’s your problem John, you’re always trying to change things”. A few months later he quit.
politelemon 3y ago
That doesn't make sense. People who aren't in a position to change things shouldn't have to hold their opinions back. I have opinions about how my country is run, what trending with people, and reddit's latest decision making. I have limited to no control over each. It does not mean I need to be quiet though, that's how nothing happens.
- ornornor 3y ago
  I believe as you get older and value your own sanity more (maybe because you have less energy to expand overall?) that’s exactly what you do: nothing. I hate what Reddit has become. The day they killed third party apps etc, I just deleted my account with “hi spez“ as the reason. Reddit is still running to it’s ruin and I’ve achieved nothing on that front but my sanity is preserved and I got 30–60 minutes a day of my life back.

pdimitar 3y ago

How? Programmers don't have executive powers. You are very often told that this is not your job and you should be doing yours and leave the "experts" to theirs. Well, they are not experts. They are not even at the level of informed amateurs. But they have the power. What would you do? Sure, there are good companies and you can switch until you find one but let's recognize that statistically speaking this absolutely does not scale -- likely maximum 20% of the programmer workforce can do that. Maybe even only 10%. So again, what would you do?

ludicity 3y ago
Hello! I am the author, and you've saved me writing this out. The whole point is that you actually can't do something (and that's okay! I don't complain anymore either!). Burnout comes from believing what people are saying in corporate contexts without looking at what they're actually doing. I have come across so many government teams that say they want to start using version control... as if someone has been stopping them all these years! If they were serious, they'd just do it, so you're better off just looking at what they're doing than talking.
- Loggias 3y ago
  [dead]
smokefoot 3y ago
In no particular order: 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions 2. Recruit some good people 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes—“there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…” or, “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better” There’s a trap here which is thinking it’s all crap so I may as well not try. It’s seductive but quite poinsonous to the organization and to the individual.
- pdimitar 3y ago
  > 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions "Appreciate the feedback but we got this covered. Please resume your duties." > 2. Recruit some good people Did you miss the part where I said that my comment is from the point of view of a working programmer and not an executive? > 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes See my reply to your (1) above. > “there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…” "Don't be a condescending smart-ass please, you are not being a team player right now." > “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better” "They work well enough for us and we have no time budget for any modifications, and we are not convinced the said modifications are necessary at all". --- Your move.
  - jsocuwl 3y ago
    In a big enough organization, it is a complex system with unpredictable outcome. Pouring your soul into it may lead to unexpected consequences as opposed to simpler environments where your contribution actually make a relative difference.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      True, that's why if I get to work for a big organization again I'll not even entertain the idea of trying to make a difference in improving processes. I'll just gulp the salary and never stick my nose out of my direct responsibilities as written in the contract. Making a difference can only happen in small tight-knit teams.
lr4444lr 3y ago
I'd leave, and prioritize a functional organization in my next job requirements.
- pdimitar 3y ago
  I did that. A number of times, because it turns out people lie through their teeth that their organization is functional (during interviews). At one point people started asking why I have 3 contracts in a single year. Checkmate. What would you do?
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Make my own organization.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      I have one, since 2008. Did not automatically make me financially independent so as not to care what my customers do, sadly.
  - lr4444lr 3y ago
    Either develop a better intuition for when people are lying and how ti read between the lines, or use friends, family, and associates you can trust who can do so.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      Not once in my life did I ever use friends / family / associates to get a job but who knows, maybe I will do it once before I hit 45.
      - lr4444lr 3y ago
        To be clear, I mean that when you apply for jobs, try to convey these trusted people in your life as much as you can about the role - conversations you've had, things you saw on a site visit, public info about the company, and ask whether they see any red flags, esp. as relate to your incompatibilities. Not that you use them as actual connections to find a job.
patmcc 3y ago
>>>How? Programmers don't have executive powers. The secret is - and this is wielded a million times a day in a million small ways - of course we do. Lots of people do in lots of jobs, whether intended or not. You just do the thing. You don't ask about doing the thing, you don't put in a project planning proposal, you don't beg your manager to devote 20% of your time to the thing, you just go and do it because you probably can. And as long as you do it, and it goes well, and nobody really notices until it's working, then it turns out you did have executive powers the whole time. Just do the thing. Ask forgiveness, not permission.
- kukkeliskuu 3y ago
  Yes, this is important. Most people seem to self-sabotage their power. But many managers at least profess to look for "self-guided" people. I do this so regularly it is kind of a second nature to me. Sometimes is backfires, but if you really know what you are doing, mostly you will be fine. Might even get rewarded or promoted.
- lmm 3y ago
  The best case, if you're lucky, no-one notices. More likely you're marked as a troublemaker and pushed out. You're literally better off slacking off for that 20%.
  - princeb 3y ago
    the best case is that you make the firm a lot of money, and you were successful justifying your contribution and your deserved commiseration. the least bad case is that you realize why nobody wanted to go ahead with your proposal in the first place but you caused no harm other than wasting several months of your own effort. the worst case obviously is that you caused a huge amount of problems for the firm and people are aware of where those problems came from.
- pdimitar 3y ago
  Yeah, that's the only thing that ever worked. I still don't recommend it because people do notice, it's just that many don't care. But when they do, you're in trouble. But yeah, I've done it.

jahewson 3y ago

I once worked with a guy who had standards and a good handle on the disappointing gap between concept and reality and even he said to me “that’s your problem John, you’re always trying to change things”. A few months later he quit.

politelemon 3y ago

That doesn't make sense. People who aren't in a position to change things shouldn't have to hold their opinions back. I have opinions about how my country is run, what trending with people, and reddit's latest decision making. I have limited to no control over each. It does not mean I need to be quiet though, that's how nothing happens.

ornornor 3y ago
I believe as you get older and value your own sanity more (maybe because you have less energy to expand overall?) that’s exactly what you do: nothing. I hate what Reddit has become. The day they killed third party apps etc, I just deleted my account with “hi spez“ as the reason. Reddit is still running to it’s ruin and I’ve achieved nothing on that front but my sanity is preserved and I got 30–60 minutes a day of my life back.