3 ms·

It seems like an odd place for a socialist like Doctorow to publish. I wonder how that happened?

vertis 3y ago
Very strange. I mean this is a publication that has Tucker Carlson on the Advisory Board.
yankput 3y ago
I was as shocked as you, but then I remember, the paleo-conservative right doesn’t like big tech as they are seeing them as censors.
- catlover76 3y ago
  Which is of course really weird given the history of big tech, Facebook in particular, serving as a distribution channel for right-wing bullshit. The internet in general served as an incubator for all sorts of right-wing stuff that found it difficult to find purchase in broader society. Being down-voted by people who deny the reality of fake news about Hillary Clinton even though many of us saw it with our own eyes, and who deny the existence of places like 4Chan. Deny the existence of reporting about Facebook's role in propagating content that led to genocide in Burma (their right-wingers do what ours can only dream of), etc.
yankput 3y ago
Funnily enough, literally the previous article from the same series praises Margaret Thatcher. Lol. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-the-ownership-revolution-saved-britain/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-the-ownership-re...
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Specifically in the context of privatization. I see that as orthogonal to this article
ReptileMan 3y ago
Culture wars make strange bedfellows. Right now there seems to be proto-forming an (reluctant) alliance between the saner right and the part of the liberal left that is scared/disgusted of the more fanatical illiberal ultraprogressives. If you want freedom of speech and the freedom of computing - the conservatives are natural allies. Not that they are terribly principled, but because they are getting the shaft at online censorship they are willing to tolerate free speech a bit more, at least until they get to power.
- wustangdan 3y ago
  I see it less as an alliance and more like a shift. Being pro freedom of speech and the freedom of computing you are pushed out of the left. You can say they aren't the actual left, but the fact is their anti-free speech ideas are polling over 50% so hate to say it, but they are the left. See "The shift in Democratic views on free speech — what’s going on?" "at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened?
  - darigo 3y ago
    >So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened? One way to square that with what happened: The left continued accruing power throughout Trump's presidency. I don't think the model of power relations presented in, eg, the constitution, or a civics class, or even an econ 101 class, have existed for centuries now
    - wustangdan 3y ago
      I'd buy that.
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    >"at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened? During the Trump years the leftist controlled only the social media, most of traditional media, cultural institutions, academia, almost any big institution became "woke" and the civil service. And whomever has watched Yes minister knows who actually rules a country. And the censorship machine was well oiled for the 2020 election. We had literal pleas to pharma giants to postpone the covid vaccine after the election. https://www.natesilver.net/p/twitter-elon-and-the-indigo-blob https://www.natesilver.net/p/twitter-elon-and-the-indigo-blo...
danShumway 3y ago
Doctorow (imo) prioritizes breadth of reach over control over how and where his message gets delivered. It's an interesting strategy in part because it means a lot of the people encountering him are probably not aware of him in other online spaces, they'll only see him when republished in sources they already read, and they might not ever work their way back to his blog. On one hand I'd be very worried about dilution of the message, misinterpretation, etc... On the other hand, it's enabled Doctorow to get some of his concepts into much wider cultural circles than he otherwise would have access to, so it's hard for me to criticize it too much. And I think that Doctorow also has a talent for figuring out how to frame his ideas in a way where the conclusions stay the same, but it feels like he's reaching those conclusions by arguing specifically from your individual starting position and ideological base. His essays tend to (again, imo) feel tailored in a way where regardless of the context or regardless of where the essay is published, it'll have this vibe of "I'm on your community's side and I'm saying stuff that you all are going to nod along to and agree with... and therefore X/Y/Z." Pros and cons to that approach, but it makes him accessible in a way that many other political writers aren't. So it's not too surprising to me to see his writing show up in Conservative circles as well as Liberal ones, I think it just kind of shows his talent for subtly reframing political discussions depending on the context.
- samtho 3y ago
  Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own, i.e. both conservative and liberal ideals (in the recent past) seemed well-intentioned enough to claim that they each just want what’s best for the country. Now it seems like we have four factions and the centrist left and centrist right just seem to be merging while the far left and far right are moving further away from everyone.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    Feels to me like centrist left and right are getting pulled apart from one another to their respective ideological fringes. This has pretty much just totally happened to the Republicans; Democrats have done a better job of staying centered and responsible, but I don't think that will last forever, unfortunately. > Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own Well, they don't have similar "north stars" or visions of the country or normative values. But this isn't discussed or debated directly by anyone; politician, talking head, or otherwise.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
He's a socialist? I've always gathered that he is pro-capitalism but doesn't like the market capturing aberration that is big tech. Capitalism thrives on fair competition. Wanting to take a regulatory hammer to break up trusts isn't socialist- it's a necessary part of fair capitalism.
- skybrian 3y ago
  The Wikipedia article points to a tweet: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1454158218117197826 https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1454158218117197826
avgcorrection 3y ago
Conservative outlets can be less censorious towards socialists than liberal ones. Left-liberals like to pose as being progressives and socialists have a tendency to reveal that they are not. (I take your word for it that they are a socialist since I don't who they are.)

Very strange. I mean this is a publication that has Tucker Carlson on the Advisory Board.

I was as shocked as you, but then I remember, the paleo-conservative right doesn’t like big tech as they are seeing them as censors.

catlover76 3y ago
Which is of course really weird given the history of big tech, Facebook in particular, serving as a distribution channel for right-wing bullshit. The internet in general served as an incubator for all sorts of right-wing stuff that found it difficult to find purchase in broader society. Being down-voted by people who deny the reality of fake news about Hillary Clinton even though many of us saw it with our own eyes, and who deny the existence of places like 4Chan. Deny the existence of reporting about Facebook's role in propagating content that led to genocide in Burma (their right-wingers do what ours can only dream of), etc.

yankput 3y ago

Funnily enough, literally the previous article from the same series praises Margaret Thatcher. Lol. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-the-ownership-revolution-saved-britain/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-the-ownership-re...

paulddraper 3y ago
Specifically in the context of privatization. I see that as orthogonal to this article

ReptileMan 3y ago

Culture wars make strange bedfellows. Right now there seems to be proto-forming an (reluctant) alliance between the saner right and the part of the liberal left that is scared/disgusted of the more fanatical illiberal ultraprogressives. If you want freedom of speech and the freedom of computing - the conservatives are natural allies. Not that they are terribly principled, but because they are getting the shaft at online censorship they are willing to tolerate free speech a bit more, at least until they get to power.

wustangdan 3y ago
I see it less as an alliance and more like a shift. Being pro freedom of speech and the freedom of computing you are pushed out of the left. You can say they aren't the actual left, but the fact is their anti-free speech ideas are polling over 50% so hate to say it, but they are the left. See "The shift in Democratic views on free speech — what’s going on?" "at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened?
- darigo 3y ago
  >So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened? One way to square that with what happened: The left continued accruing power throughout Trump's presidency. I don't think the model of power relations presented in, eg, the constitution, or a civics class, or even an econ 101 class, have existed for centuries now
  - wustangdan 3y ago
    I'd buy that.
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  >"at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened? During the Trump years the leftist controlled only the social media, most of traditional media, cultural institutions, academia, almost any big institution became "woke" and the civil service. And whomever has watched Yes minister knows who actually rules a country. And the censorship machine was well oiled for the 2020 election. We had literal pleas to pharma giants to postpone the covid vaccine after the election. https://www.natesilver.net/p/twitter-elon-and-the-indigo-blob https://www.natesilver.net/p/twitter-elon-and-the-indigo-blo...

danShumway 3y ago

Doctorow (imo) prioritizes breadth of reach over control over how and where his message gets delivered. It's an interesting strategy in part because it means a lot of the people encountering him are probably not aware of him in other online spaces, they'll only see him when republished in sources they already read, and they might not ever work their way back to his blog. On one hand I'd be very worried about dilution of the message, misinterpretation, etc... On the other hand, it's enabled Doctorow to get some of his concepts into much wider cultural circles than he otherwise would have access to, so it's hard for me to criticize it too much. And I think that Doctorow also has a talent for figuring out how to frame his ideas in a way where the conclusions stay the same, but it feels like he's reaching those conclusions by arguing specifically from your individual starting position and ideological base. His essays tend to (again, imo) feel tailored in a way where regardless of the context or regardless of where the essay is published, it'll have this vibe of "I'm on your community's side and I'm saying stuff that you all are going to nod along to and agree with... and therefore X/Y/Z." Pros and cons to that approach, but it makes him accessible in a way that many other political writers aren't. So it's not too surprising to me to see his writing show up in Conservative circles as well as Liberal ones, I think it just kind of shows his talent for subtly reframing political discussions depending on the context.

samtho 3y ago
Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own, i.e. both conservative and liberal ideals (in the recent past) seemed well-intentioned enough to claim that they each just want what’s best for the country. Now it seems like we have four factions and the centrist left and centrist right just seem to be merging while the far left and far right are moving further away from everyone.
- catlover76 3y ago
  Feels to me like centrist left and right are getting pulled apart from one another to their respective ideological fringes. This has pretty much just totally happened to the Republicans; Democrats have done a better job of staying centered and responsible, but I don't think that will last forever, unfortunately. > Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own Well, they don't have similar "north stars" or visions of the country or normative values. But this isn't discussed or debated directly by anyone; politician, talking head, or otherwise.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

He's a socialist? I've always gathered that he is pro-capitalism but doesn't like the market capturing aberration that is big tech. Capitalism thrives on fair competition. Wanting to take a regulatory hammer to break up trusts isn't socialist- it's a necessary part of fair capitalism.

skybrian 3y ago
The Wikipedia article points to a tweet: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1454158218117197826 https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1454158218117197826

avgcorrection 3y ago

Conservative outlets can be less censorious towards socialists than liberal ones. Left-liberals like to pose as being progressives and socialists have a tendency to reveal that they are not. (I take your word for it that they are a socialist since I don't who they are.)