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Both concepts can be true. A lot of people, especially in the developed world, have way more opportunities than they realize. Those that take on some (often ver

Both concepts can be true. A lot of people, especially in the developed world, have way more opportunities than they realize. Those that take on some (often very modest) risk to exercise those opportunities are self-made. It would be ridiculous to say that Picasso didn't make a painting because someone else supplied the paint. He's the one that saw the paint and the canvas and put them together in a unique way.

alexvoda 3y ago
The Picasso analogy really doesn't work, it makes no sense.
lisper 3y ago
But Picasso was also lucky enough to be born in a place and time where he had access to enough economic surplus that he could spend time painting rather than having to spend all his time working the fields just to survive. He also had the extra good fortune of being in a situation where those around him had access to enough economic surplus that they could afford to buy his paintings at a pretty substantial markup over the actual cost of production. None of these things are givens.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
  I don’t even know why people bother argue such things? To not feel bad others have accomplished more?
  - skullone 3y ago
    It makes me feel even better looking at accomplished peoples work. Seeing the whole thing come together, everyone's contributions that lead to works of art, science, engineering, etc. It would make me feel shitty that "accomplished people" were standalone in their works, where no one along their life was ever helpful or interested or supported or bought their works. It takes a village (or a planet/solar system/galaxy/universe worth of everything going right for a single accomplishment to have happened)
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    >To not feel bad others have accomplished more? No; I think the self-made man is dangerous because it leads people to believe 2 things: 1.) You can and should go it alone 2.) Other people shouldn't need your help. I don't think Arnold tells his story the way he does in order to diminish his own accomplishments. It's used to highlight all the people that helped him along the way to get him to where he is. It's important to ask for help, to ask for guidance and depend on others. There's no glory in going it alone and you can be propelled immensely by relying on others to support your efforts. Furthermore, it's important to provide a lending hand to others. Great men are built with the help of others and you have a responsibility to help others excel when you can. I think telling these stories help break the hyper-individualistic ethos of the American self-made man. Once you break this myth that so-and-so is self-made, we can make steps into re-examining how we treat our families, friends and fellow Americans (and/or countrymen). Common adages such as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" will become more and more asinine once we understand no one is fully self-made; and I think that change in social psyche will have societal benefits.
    - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
      Okay; maybe, in some cases going alone is fine, in some cases not. That's a discussion worth having. But even if that's the argument, that's not the way OP phrased his point. His point entirely about how the greats where just a product of their environment and not their individual greatness. Not a discussion that seems to in anyway advance to a better progress of group or individual; but more about pettiness tbh.
  - __rito__ 3y ago
    There are many examples in life where I have seen people and recognized that if this person were born in a slightly different household, slightly different time, slightly different economy, etc. - this person would have made it big! I have actually seen this in many places. One example on top my head- my neighbor was a talented video editor. Not legendary level, but okay. He eventually set up shop for editing wedding videos and such. He got contracts, he got praises and contracts in affluent families- all of this was not enough for sustaining a middle class life for an adult. He eventually set up a convenient store with the help of his father in law. He was quite old and had to move on to earn a middle class income. He did not have access to internet until early 2010s. Now, his nephew, who is also my neighbor is also a video editor. But he got internet since he was born. He has all the resources. He has discord servers where people guide him and share resources. He is also an online gamer, and edited his own videos and posted them online. That led him to international contracts. Last month he earned US$120 working a single night. That's HUGE for a 19 YO in small town India. Had his uncle (now in his early 40s) had all these, he would have made it big. Circumstances do influence heavily how much a person succeeds. I don't hold the line that equal opportunities lead to equal outcome- that doesn't happen. But do think about the child that was born today in slavery in Libya, and a child born to a FAANG worker parent in Bay Area. Do you think that they have equal chances of success? And, I will also mention that Picasso had neighbors and peers. They didn't become as famed. Talent and individuality matters, too.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Probably worth arguing about, because so many people that think they are 'self-made' also want to take away opportunities from others. So its good to keep these concepts in the general awareness.
- 7e 3y ago
  Picasso shares those surpluses with hundreds of millions of other people. That didn’t make him special.
0xcde4c3db 3y ago
Picasso was the son of an accomplished painter and art professor, who tutored him from a young age. That's not the sort of opportunity that's all around average people.
johnny99k 3y ago
Because what you are describing is literally what happens in all situations for everything, it shouldn't even factor into success. It's a given that to be successful, there are external entities involved (infrastructure, people). I suppose if you get a PHD, you should be thanking the factory worker that was responsible for the paper in your diploma. Should you also thank Bill Gates for providing the operating system and software that allowed you to write your thesis? Instead, it's being used as a tactic to cut down anyone that is successful (you didn't earn that success, it was the people around you). If success were that easy, everyone would be successful..but this just isn't reality.
- apsurd 3y ago
  Thank the factory worker for the paper and Bill Gates for the OS sounds like a lovely idea! Marie Kondo vibes. I agree "success is not your own" can be weaponized, but also let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. The paper - and this humanity team we are on - did help!
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  My father thanked the typist who prepared the final copy of his PhD thesis.
- EGG_CREAM 3y ago
  People hear what they want to, to be honest. Most of the time, in my experience, people aren't trying to "cut down" successful people, they are just trying to show that it wasn't all skill and good decisions. Its a response to the idea that people who are successful, and especially those with financial success, are somehow morally superior to those who are less successful. This idea is pervasive, at least in the USA, and that's the context people are usually coming from when they talk about the externalities that lead to success. And honestly, if successful people don't recognize the luck that also went into their success, they become delusional.
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
    There's definitely a subset of people who have achieved nothing in their life, and instead of changing simply resent others who've done something. Invariably, these people spend more time in online communities like Reddit and come to dominate the conversation there. They also (surprise, surprise) congregate in low skilled jobs where you can phone it in a bit. Depending on your circles, you might not come across them much, but they are absolutely everywhere.
les_diabolique 3y ago
In reference to what Arnold is talk aobut, he's more so referring to the people that shaped him into the person he is today, from his parents to everyone that he has met along the way. So in regards to Picasso, it wouldn't be the paint supplies, but everyone that supported/encouraged/discouraged/nay saysers, that guided him along the way to his success.
dontlaugh 3y ago
Picasso was a communist. He would have insisted that he couldn’t have used his talent without the collective production of all of society.

alexvoda 3y ago

The Picasso analogy really doesn't work, it makes no sense.

lisper 3y ago

But Picasso was also lucky enough to be born in a place and time where he had access to enough economic surplus that he could spend time painting rather than having to spend all his time working the fields just to survive. He also had the extra good fortune of being in a situation where those around him had access to enough economic surplus that they could afford to buy his paintings at a pretty substantial markup over the actual cost of production. None of these things are givens.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
I don’t even know why people bother argue such things? To not feel bad others have accomplished more?
- skullone 3y ago
  It makes me feel even better looking at accomplished peoples work. Seeing the whole thing come together, everyone's contributions that lead to works of art, science, engineering, etc. It would make me feel shitty that "accomplished people" were standalone in their works, where no one along their life was ever helpful or interested or supported or bought their works. It takes a village (or a planet/solar system/galaxy/universe worth of everything going right for a single accomplishment to have happened)
- nemothekid 3y ago
  >To not feel bad others have accomplished more? No; I think the self-made man is dangerous because it leads people to believe 2 things: 1.) You can and should go it alone 2.) Other people shouldn't need your help. I don't think Arnold tells his story the way he does in order to diminish his own accomplishments. It's used to highlight all the people that helped him along the way to get him to where he is. It's important to ask for help, to ask for guidance and depend on others. There's no glory in going it alone and you can be propelled immensely by relying on others to support your efforts. Furthermore, it's important to provide a lending hand to others. Great men are built with the help of others and you have a responsibility to help others excel when you can. I think telling these stories help break the hyper-individualistic ethos of the American self-made man. Once you break this myth that so-and-so is self-made, we can make steps into re-examining how we treat our families, friends and fellow Americans (and/or countrymen). Common adages such as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" will become more and more asinine once we understand no one is fully self-made; and I think that change in social psyche will have societal benefits.
  - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
    Okay; maybe, in some cases going alone is fine, in some cases not. That's a discussion worth having. But even if that's the argument, that's not the way OP phrased his point. His point entirely about how the greats where just a product of their environment and not their individual greatness. Not a discussion that seems to in anyway advance to a better progress of group or individual; but more about pettiness tbh.
- __rito__ 3y ago
  There are many examples in life where I have seen people and recognized that if this person were born in a slightly different household, slightly different time, slightly different economy, etc. - this person would have made it big! I have actually seen this in many places. One example on top my head- my neighbor was a talented video editor. Not legendary level, but okay. He eventually set up shop for editing wedding videos and such. He got contracts, he got praises and contracts in affluent families- all of this was not enough for sustaining a middle class life for an adult. He eventually set up a convenient store with the help of his father in law. He was quite old and had to move on to earn a middle class income. He did not have access to internet until early 2010s. Now, his nephew, who is also my neighbor is also a video editor. But he got internet since he was born. He has all the resources. He has discord servers where people guide him and share resources. He is also an online gamer, and edited his own videos and posted them online. That led him to international contracts. Last month he earned US$120 working a single night. That's HUGE for a 19 YO in small town India. Had his uncle (now in his early 40s) had all these, he would have made it big. Circumstances do influence heavily how much a person succeeds. I don't hold the line that equal opportunities lead to equal outcome- that doesn't happen. But do think about the child that was born today in slavery in Libya, and a child born to a FAANG worker parent in Bay Area. Do you think that they have equal chances of success? And, I will also mention that Picasso had neighbors and peers. They didn't become as famed. Talent and individuality matters, too.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Probably worth arguing about, because so many people that think they are 'self-made' also want to take away opportunities from others. So its good to keep these concepts in the general awareness.
7e 3y ago
Picasso shares those surpluses with hundreds of millions of other people. That didn’t make him special.

0xcde4c3db 3y ago

Picasso was the son of an accomplished painter and art professor, who tutored him from a young age. That's not the sort of opportunity that's all around average people.

johnny99k 3y ago

Because what you are describing is literally what happens in all situations for everything, it shouldn't even factor into success. It's a given that to be successful, there are external entities involved (infrastructure, people). I suppose if you get a PHD, you should be thanking the factory worker that was responsible for the paper in your diploma. Should you also thank Bill Gates for providing the operating system and software that allowed you to write your thesis? Instead, it's being used as a tactic to cut down anyone that is successful (you didn't earn that success, it was the people around you). If success were that easy, everyone would be successful..but this just isn't reality.

apsurd 3y ago
Thank the factory worker for the paper and Bill Gates for the OS sounds like a lovely idea! Marie Kondo vibes. I agree "success is not your own" can be weaponized, but also let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. The paper - and this humanity team we are on - did help!
SoftTalker 3y ago
My father thanked the typist who prepared the final copy of his PhD thesis.
EGG_CREAM 3y ago
People hear what they want to, to be honest. Most of the time, in my experience, people aren't trying to "cut down" successful people, they are just trying to show that it wasn't all skill and good decisions. Its a response to the idea that people who are successful, and especially those with financial success, are somehow morally superior to those who are less successful. This idea is pervasive, at least in the USA, and that's the context people are usually coming from when they talk about the externalities that lead to success. And honestly, if successful people don't recognize the luck that also went into their success, they become delusional.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  There's definitely a subset of people who have achieved nothing in their life, and instead of changing simply resent others who've done something. Invariably, these people spend more time in online communities like Reddit and come to dominate the conversation there. They also (surprise, surprise) congregate in low skilled jobs where you can phone it in a bit. Depending on your circles, you might not come across them much, but they are absolutely everywhere.

les_diabolique 3y ago

In reference to what Arnold is talk aobut, he's more so referring to the people that shaped him into the person he is today, from his parents to everyone that he has met along the way. So in regards to Picasso, it wouldn't be the paint supplies, but everyone that supported/encouraged/discouraged/nay saysers, that guided him along the way to his success.

dontlaugh 3y ago

Picasso was a communist. He would have insisted that he couldn’t have used his talent without the collective production of all of society.